The dreaded lifter tick...

[72 440 Barracuda]

My daughter has a 2014 SRT Charger (392) with the MDS.
I am sure others have non-hellcat hemi's so I am trying to find more info on this issue. Does anyone have information they can share?
My daughters 392 started with a P219B code (Bank 2 Air/Fuel Ratio Imbalance), but it appears that the lifter failed and wiped out the cam lobe. I am tearing into it right now. The question I have is; the fix I am going with is using a Hellcat lifter and diabling the MDS system - has anyone see this issue on the Hellcats? I have not been able to find any, which would seem to validate my approach to this repair... If anyone has comments on this I would like to hear them.

 

[BULL]

I wasn't aware that this failure was happening on the 392/6.4's, I thought it was specific to the 5.7's.

I assume you've confirmed the camshaft is flat?

 

[72 440 Barracuda]

I wasn't aware that this failure was happening on the 392/6.4's, I thought it was specific to the 5.7's.

I assume you've confirmed the camshaft is flat?

I have been working with a friend thats a Chrysler Tech and did a series of tests, which ended with the valve cover off checking for low lifter movement. #2 intake does not have the lift like the others do (less valve movement at the rocker) I am pulling the head (and cam) right now to get to the lifter to see the damage on the cam...

 

[SilverBillet]

I guess you know to leave the exhaust manifold on the head to pull the head? Pull the head and check the lifters before you pull the front of the motor off. If the roller on the lifter is not locked up, your cam is probably ok. With a bad lifter (less lift) you typically get an engine code of a miss detected in that cylinder.

 

[72 440 Barracuda]

Correct - I have seen a P0302 (cylinder 2 misfire) and the plug condition has deteriorated on cylinder 2 from my first check (first time all cylinders on bank 2 looked good - pass side), but the last check was getting darker looking rich. I also checked the oil and it looks good, but I am doing further checks (oil filter and draining the pan into a clean container using a magnet to check for particles in the oil).
I am pretty sure I can save the motor, but I am not 100% there yet...
Yes - on the manifold, at least thats what I will find out (lol).

 

[Hunter]

I'm confused.
I did not think the 392 was MDS.

 

[Hellcatcfp]

I'm confused.
I did not think the 392 was MDS.

Didn't think it was either.

 

[Trucker Bob]

I saw a youtube video on why the 5.7 lifters failed a year ago. If the blocks are the same it would make sense 392 would fail as well. Sorry to hear.

 

[72 440 Barracuda]

I'm confused.
I did not think the 392 was MDS.

The 392 is MDS in the auto Challenger and Charger - I believe out out to the current current models, the manual Challenger (392) is not MDS.... anyone know better about that or can co firm that?

 

[72 440 Barracuda]

Is anyone aware of those issues on any Hellcat motor? (obviously non-MDS). Thats the real question I have...
I am trying to determine if its an MDS issue as has been suggested or if it was solved by the Hellcat lifter, since I also do not know what the difference is with the Hellcat lifter relative to other designs. I have also heard Mopar made changes in 2017 that solved the lifter (?) problem. Obviously these answers will help me with the current issue I have...

 

[BadData]

The 392 auto is MDS. I owned at '19 scat pack. Also since '14 the lifters have been improved and are the same for the 5.7, 6.4 and 6.2.

 

[SilverBillet]

My lifter failure was not in one of the MDS cylinders. The needle bearing failed on a non MDS lifter

 

[Xylander]

I wasn't aware that this failure was happening on the 392/6.4's, I thought it was specific to the 5.7's.

I assume you've confirmed the camshaft is flat?

It happens to virtually all MDS equipped engines at some point due to lack of lubrication. My 392 developed this tick at around 12,000mi after only 18 months. This is an excellent video that explains it all in absolute perfect detail:

Thankfully, the 6.2L in the Hellcat is not an MDS engine One of the known "fixes" is to do an MDS delete on the 5.7/6.4.

 

[AeroF16]

The 392 is MDS in the auto Challenger and Charger - I believe out out to the current current models, the manual Challenger (392) is not MDS.... anyone know better about that or can co firm that?

 

[Xylander]

My lifter failure was not in one of the MDS cylinders. The needle bearing failed on a non MDS lifter

The MDS doesn't determine where the lifters fail. It's an overall lack of camshaft lubrication caused by the MDS' architecture, which in turn results in reduced camshaft lubrication and splash to the lifters. My 12,000 mi 392 had to have its camshaft replaced as the "Hemi tick" was more like a Hemi nail gun sound. Every lifter they pulled out of the engine had scoring or damage and the cam had an entire lobe rubbed flat and evidence of wear on most of the other lobes.

This was on a 2018 392 A8.

 

[72 440 Barracuda]

My lifter failure was not in one of the MDS cylinders. The needle bearing failed on a non MDS lifter

The MDS cylinders are 1, 4, 6, and 7. My failure appears to be just cylinder 2 after 76,000 miles. Has anyone had the failure in a non-MDS motor?

The MDS doesn't determine where the lifters fail. It's an overall lack of camshaft lubrication caused by the MDS' architecture, which in turn results in reduced camshaft lubrication and splash to the lifters.

This is what I believe as well... When checking the lifter (rocker arm movement) I had oil spitting all over from 4, 6, and 8 - surprising the cylinder 2 intake spring was "dry" relative to the other springs - I will try focus on that cylinder during the disassembly... I think oiling is critical to fixing the problem.

 

[Trucker Bob]

I didn't watch the video posted but the one i watched talked about a lack of splash oil from low RPMs getting up to the lifter bores and starving the bearings.

 

[Xylander]

I didn't watch the video posted but the one i watched talked about a lack of splash oil from low RPMs getting up to the lifter bores and starving the bearings.

The video I linked is from a widely regarded race engine building legend. He's been building race engines for almost 50 years and has built thousands of engines. He goes through, step by step as to how the problem occurs, why it happens, and potential ways it can be fixed (none of which FCA would pay for). His recommendation about the removing of the MDS system is in the comments.

 

[Magnified]

My daughter has a 2014 SRT Charger (392) with the MDS.
I am sure others have non-hellcat hemi's so I am trying to find more info on this issue. Does anyone have information they can share?
My daughters 392 started with a P219B code (Bank 2 Air/Fuel Ratio Imbalance), but it appears that the lifter failed and wiped out the cam lobe. I am tearing into it right now. The question I have is; the fix I am going with is using a Hellcat lifter and diabling the MDS system - has anyone see this issue on the Hellcats? I have not been able to find any, which would seem to validate my approach to this repair... If anyone has comments on this I would like to hear them.

Mind if I ask what the purpose is with using the HC lifter? Just happen to have one around? Feel like experimenting? Seem like a lot of additional difficulty (potentially) added to the project.

 

[72 440 Barracuda]

Mind if I ask what the purpose is with using the HC lifter? Just happen to have one around? Feel like experimenting? Seem like a lot of additional difficulty (potentially) added to the project.

Two reasons for the Hellcat lifter -
1 - I believe the problems is related to the MDS oiling on the top end (MDS lifters), so I am deleting the MDS, which means I need new lifters.
2 - As far as I know the Hellcat doesn't have this issue, and from what I have seen the lifters are an upgrade to what was originally installed in the 392 - although I am having trouble defining what exactly was changed. Which is why I am asking everyone here.
The only real issue was removal of the MDS from the system, which means a mechanical change removing the lifters and solenoids and program which means a tune. Luckily this is a 2014 which can delete the MDS operation via a Diablo tuner - the MDS operation is turned off. The 2015 requires breaking into the PCM to change the tune.
I watched the video above and it didnt make sense, since the oil galley supplies the lifter galleys (bores) directly and the lifter itself (lifter pump) is supplied via the pushrod which is controlled by the MDS system - another variable which I am still trying to fully understand. Any Techs out there that can explain the MDS operation of the lifters?
Like I mentioned above - I think the issue is tied to the MDS so I am going to remove it from the engine.