How I setup ID 1300XDS injectors for my tune.

[fumanchu182]

@Speedy! has given me a little nudge in the right direction based on another post. Why break what works? So I put in the ID 1300XDS injectors and started with a known good 93 tune with ANN ON! The tune is a daily driver and has timing removed, WOT with no other modifiers is 10*. To start I pulled down the 1300XDS injector data from the ID website found here: http://help.injectordynamics.com/su...les/178418-chrysler-injector-characterization.

So here are the following tables and how I modified them. Fuel Mass vs Fuel Temp.

Inj. PW vs Igntion Vs Pressure Differential

(For this table the stock data ends at 16, I interpolated the values for 15.8 using linear interpolation.)

Then I modified the following tables, I changed the readings to grams (g) and (ms) after I was done with the ID data. These tables are inverse and need to be setup accordingly that way. These are the most important tables to get right from the start. The values you see here are not the stock data you will start with and I wouldn't recommend copying them and using them, my car != your car.


So the next two values are directly from the excel spreadsheet. The Startup Inj PW Scalar has a hard limit of 16 in the PCM no values above this will be accepted. Hasn't been an issue so far.


Then I adjusted the Start Inj PW with the data from the excel as well.


So with these injectors I have no idea where WOT will reside in the fuel mass vs LTFT + STFT histogram. Speaking of this is how I setup my histogram in VCM Scanner:

(keep in mind the photo above is not where you will start out with the stock data, I'll explain in a bit)

So to start I did some idle tuning. Exactly as that, started the car and waited two minutes to see where the fuel trims, after a minute or two I had some data for the down low ranges and adjusted as necessary. The delta for down low wasn't bad. Just had to remove some fuel as the injectors are "fat" with the plug n' play data. From revision 1 to revision 2 this is how much was removed:

When you update the Inj. PW vs Fuel Mass table you have to update the inverse table as well, they always have to be inverses. From here I started just driving around town. Nothing more than 3k in acceleration and nothing really crazy speed wise, no highway/wot pulls. From revisions 2 to revision 3, I had to add and remove some here and there:

Not a lot, the injector data is really good. Now I decided to do accelerations from 2k to 5k with paddle shifters holding gear to see where I am at. I also noticed the big jump from .052g to 0.152g and decided I wanted more granularity between those values so I setup the tables in the tune accordingly:

(this is why my histograms look the way they do). So with two revisions I have a fully driveable around town Hellcat with 1300XDS injectors installed. Of course there is plenty of data to still get. I need just more time. With the snow coming in and cold weather not cooperating for the tracks it just takes time. Maybe soon I'll be able to get to a dyno that my friend runs (a calibration dyno) and get better data for WOT. It was a fun experience and I want to get this 93 dialed in so I can then have some fun with E85. After revision 4 I started doing some more driving and now that I have a lot more granularity I think I overshot my values and run a little lean. But +/- 5% in either direction should be the goal. On the highway she crusies just fine.


IMO I think that my WOT will rest between .119 and .250g. If that is the case then I will adjust the tune for that granularity and adjust my histograms as necessary. Thank you for coming to my TED Talk yet again and hope I spread some good knowledge. If I got anything wrong or missed something important please let me know. (all credit goes to this thread: https://forum.hptuners.com/showthre...Mass-spark-advance&highlight=fuel+mass+tuning, this is a realy great thread, give it a read!)

 

[fumanchu182]

Looking back at my old logs from the 1050 injectors. The fuel mass at WOT was .152 for the most part. Think I know where to focus on for WOT WOT WEEEEEE!

 

[jonx96]

This part can take a while. The longer the drive you go on the more accurate the data you are changing. I also tried spending time in some of the higher cells so I'd find roads I could drive down 3/4 throttle or wot for some time to populate as much data as possible. I also looked at the ST and LT fuel trim graphs in HP Tuners to make sure my fuel trims were around 5 percent.

 

[jonx96]

Curious does the tuning school books not show how to do this?

 

[fumanchu182]

Curious does the tuning school books not show how to do this?

They show how to tune for the LTFT and EQ ratio but thats for a generic mopar built with boost. The HP Tuners thread is for Hellcats specifically.

 

[jonx96]

They show how to tune for the LTFT and EQ ratio but thats for a generic mopar built with boost. The HP Tuners thread is for Hellcats specifically.

Ya that thread from hp tuners forum is what got me started with the tuning addiction. Fuel trims are the first thing I did. I bought a tune at one point and fuel trims were all over the place so I started dialing them in. Really the whole sticky section for hemi on the hp tuners forum is a huge help and can get anyone with a basic understanding started.
Sounds like the tuning school books focus on narrow band tuning and not the widebands like the hellcats have. IDK why the 6.4s didn't come with a wideband in todays day and age. Fords stick widebands on their coyote and their ecoboost platforms. But fun fact the supercharged ZL1 Camaro is a narrow band

 

[Speedy!]

Using that histogram was a good idea. I didn't think to do that and spent a LONG time working my injector data. I'm gonna go back and look at that, but I'm assuming you're logging a PID for "fuel mass cyl 1"?

Also, I thought to do what you did and modify the injector scale from how it's documented from Injector Dynamics. I emailed them to ask about that and they told me not to do that as the injectors are designed to work with the scale they provide. As a result I never moved forward with that. Curious how you make out there as I thought it odd to have such a large jump at the end of the data.

Here's the response from Mitch at ID:

The values in between the listed values the ecu automatically interpolates, so that's why you can have such a large number between 1.2 and 30, any value in between those will be filled in with a linear progression.

 

[fumanchu182]

Using that histogram was a good idea. I didn't think to do that and spent a LONG time working my injector data. I'm gonna go back and look at that, but I'm assuming you're logging a PID for "fuel mass cyl 1"?

Also, I thought to do what you did and modify the injector scale from how it's documented from Injector Dynamics. I emailed them to ask about that and they told me not to do that as the injectors are designed to work with the scale they provide. As a result I never moved forward with that. Curious how you make out there as I thought it odd to have such a large jump at the end of the data.

Here's the response from Mitch at ID:

The values in between the listed values the ecu automatically interpolates, so that's why you can have such a large number between 1.2 and 30, any value in between those will be filled in with a linear progression.

Correct, I am logging that channel. In retrospect I looked at one of my recent OST tunes and they did the same. Left the scale the way it comes from the data. I also am going to go back to the drawing board on this and start over, I was thinking it was linear interpolation. Which makes sense, fuel trims are a polynomial curve, the math makes sens in my head that way. Maybe thats why I over shot… Should have zigged when I zagged.

 

[Speedy!]

It's all part of the learning process. What's funny is you and I ended up at the same place as we got in to it LOL.

 

[fumanchu182]

So now that I have a modicum of interest in the car again, weather is still shit, I went back and re-did my injectors to look like the plug n' play data from ID to start with. Revision 1 is shown below:

Revision 4:

The delta:


Once I start tuning for the track though this car's datat will probably look nothing like this lol. When I was working with OST we had just one tune for street/track and it worked wonderfully. Hopefully I can get that magic back myself.

 

[jonx96]

Did you adjust from revision 1 to 4 just by idling?
I have found I ended up fighting myself when making changes from short trips

 

[fumanchu182]

Revision 1 was idle tune, 120 seconds of idle. Revision 2 was a checkup on idle as well. Revision 3 and 4 were semi long trims. Just worked on revision five this morning in which I was using paddle shifters to shift to 4k rpm and then command a shift. Here is the data from this morning.

As you can see its below the 5% that you would fight with potentially and overshoot your values. Here is what I learned aobut the paddle shifting. Leaner than I would like so I took the data for the entire trip and made adjustments.


Going to do some highway driving soon, the issue is the weather is really cold, 32* F so the air is very oxygen rich. However this might be good prep for the killer chiller.

 

[jonx96]

Since you are doing it your self I'd plan on getting those numbers a lot lower than 5 percent. This is just a log I have. I have dialed my injectors in even a little farther than this. This looks to be a pretty short drive here like really short. But you get the point


Take a look at this ST graph this is how I gauge how close I really am.

 

[fumanchu182]

@jonx96 100% agree. Went back out and dialed them in, don't know why they were lean.


I'm not worried for the -4.45, would rather run rich than lean. The -7.93 is from accelerating and then having to brake hard, some fuel was pumping in as the throttle was closing, not worried about it. For now I'm done doing drivability tuning. I am more worried about doing some WOT tuning now. Since the weather is really cold and getting colder 30*F today, I might just rent some dyno time to get a base tune, at least at that point I'll be ready to do some WOT at the track and get some real data.

 

[Speedy!]

In my experience with the larger injectors, I noticed areas in the inj pw at idle, like the .008 - .010 areas, that would match up with those same .008 - .010 inj pw while cruising at light throttle were a bit tricky. It was like I could get it perfect for either idle or cruise. In the end I split the difference between the two to get the trims as close as I could that fit for both scenarios (idle and cruise).

WOT is actually very easy as it matches up perfect. I've got WOT 2-3% rich (around -2-3% STFT) as like you say I'd rather it be removing fuel than having to add it.

I also didn't worry too much about on/off throttle trims as I expect to see some in those instances as the injectors turn on and off and the throttle doing it's thing independently.

 

[Mean Cat]

When I was working with OST we had just one tune for street/track and it worked wonderfully. Hopefully I can get that magic back myself.

That's where I'm at, 1 tune does it all.
I don't tweak mine or know how.

 

[Mean Cat]

All very good info though. Some I follow ok & some is in left field over the wall somewhere.

 

[fumanchu182]

This is where I'm at right now. I would get a good idle and be a little off on cruise. I'd adjust the values then I'd be off on idle. I'm going to do one last adjustment and then set it to rest. I wish I could get some WOT data but the roads are not good, dynos are all booked and none of the tracks are open. When life gives you lemons, make some lemonade and then pour some vodka in.

In my experience with the larger injectors, I noticed areas in the inj pw at idle, like the .008 - .010 areas, that would match up with those same .008 - .010 inj pw while cruising at light throttle were a bit tricky. It was like I could get it perfect for either idle or cruise. In the end I split the difference between the two to get the trims as close as I could that fit for both scenarios (idle and cruise).

WOT is actually very easy as it matches up perfect. I've got WOT 2-3% rich (around -2-3% STFT) as like you say I'd rather it be removing fuel than having to add it.

I also didn't worry too much about on/off throttle trims as I expect to see some in those instances as the injectors turn on and off and the throttle doing it's thing independently.

 

[fubar569]

Those part throttle/off idle/cruise cells are such a bastard and if you get stuck in a bad one on flex it can throw inference right out the window.

Once my fuel hat wires are tied back again I might reexamine this now that we have good pictures and stuff. Current remote flex tune is locked however...I'd have to step backwards to start again unless there's a base file somewhere. Mine is long gone.

 

[Speedy!]

In flex there are a couple other tables you can use to get trims sorted in idle vs cruise. Mike told me about them maybe ask your tuner and see.