Decided on a replacement for Go Man Go

[Speedy!]

Is that a failure of the plug, or did the car go lean and burn the strap or something?

I think running these cars hard on 91 or even 93 is a bad idea, and I also think going too high in E content is gonna be a problem for the fuel system. It makes full power on E65 and at E67 my logs show the fuel system is "OK". I'll test full E85 just so I know, but there's no reason to run full E85.

Not saying the owner did anything wrong, just calling out some things I've seen that I'm afraid a lot of people don't realize with these cars. I see people with 501 miles hitting the track and dumping in E98.

Manual says no track use until 1500 miles. I'm at about 800 now. Is this "Warloc" from the other forum? He made a comment on a spark plug thread indicating he'd seen an issue with his.

 

[Speedy!]

I shared this on the other forum in the D170 spark plug thread. This was after two WOT pulls on E67 4-6 gears. As you can see mine is not seeing any misfire problems which have been reported by some and I'm wondering what's up.....bad fuel, bad plugs, internet rumors, dunno.

 

[16GoManGoHC2]

Those plugs are typical of what happens with too much boost and timing for the fuel octane being fed to the engine. ie what @Speedy was saying he was seeing in logs running 93 with his 170.
Just because the PCM is programmed/tuned to remove timing when it’s seeing knock i.e. detonation, doesn’t mean it’s going to be able to remove enough advance and quick enough to prevent a cylinder meltdown which spark plugs like that are indicative of. I’m sure if he would’ve done a leak down test probably had a blow by issues past the rings as well, and possibly exhaust valve leakage issues from the pieces of spark plug ground strap possibly getting caught in the seat of the valve. That’s sad for a new car

 

[Speedy!]

Also, retarding timing generates heat and based on what I saw in logs with 93 it's REALLY pulling timing on pump gas. I saw like 21psi and 1 deg of timing at one point in the log. That's not good for the motor IMO.

They really should have tied the bypass to the ethanol content to limit boost pressure on pump gas.

 

[16GoManGoHC2]

Also, retarding timing generates heat and based on what I saw in logs with 93 it's REALLY pulling timing on pump gas. I saw like 21psi and 1 deg of timing at one point in the log. That's not good for the motor IMO.

They really should have tied the bypass to the ethanol content to limit boost pressure on pump gas.

Agree on both. And I don’t know why they’ve never perfected using the bypass valve to control boost. They can do it when Injector duty cycle gets past a certain amount. Why can’t they do it when it boost gets past a certain amount and tie that in with fuel used or even knock? Traction control starts to dump boost when it starts to get real hairy, ask me how I know lol. But recycling compressed air isn’t too good for manifold air temp though especially being it doesn’t go through the intercoolers on an AHI blower like it does with a Whipple when it’s bypassing.

 

[Bowtie Guy]

Is that a failure of the plug, or did the car go lean and burn the strap or something?

I think running these cars hard on 91 or even 93 is a bad idea, and I also think going too high in E content is gonna be a problem for the fuel system. It makes full power on E65 and at E67 my logs show the fuel system is "OK". I'll test full E85 just so I know, but there's no reason to run full E85.

Not saying the owner did anything wrong, just calling out some things I've seen that I'm afraid a lot of people don't realize with these cars. I see people with 501 miles hitting the track and dumping in E98.

Manual says no track use until 1500 miles. I'm at about 800 now. Is this "Warloc" from the other forum? He made a comment on a spark plug thread indicating he'd seen an issue with his.

I believe the manual comments about this Speedy
Full power at E65
It also talks about excessive Ethanol will have a power reducing affect due to the limited capacity of the injectors

I m not sure if that would turn into a miss or a lean situation

 

[Speedy!]

What "should" happen is if ethanol content goes too high and exceeds injector capacity the injector pulse width will hit the threshold limit which is 17.5 ms at 6200 RPM and up. When this limit is reached the bypass should open to bleed boost.

However, if this doesn't occur for some reason it will go lean. This worked on my 2016 but several tuners including Jon confirmed at some point later in the model years it stopped working, maybe 2018 and up. Hopefully they got it working again on Demon 170 but I'm not gonna make it a point to test it.

 

[fubar569]

What "should" happen is if ethanol content goes too high and exceeds injector capacity the injector pulse width will hit the threshold limit which is 17.5 ms at 6200 RPM and up. When this limit is reached the bypass should open to bleed boost.

However, if this doesn't occur for some reason it will go lean. This worked on my 2016 but several tuners including Jon confirmed at some point later in the model years it stopped working, maybe 2018 and up. Hopefully they got it working again on Demon 170 but I'm not gonna make it a point to test it.

Which is odd that they couldn't tie it in or even leave the injector pulse width limit functioning considering I have logs where I reached the IAT limit and she dumped about 10psi realfastlike...so that one still works.

They tie the bypass to the black key too obviously. I just can't believe there wasn't time enough to figure this out especially for powertrain engineers at the factory.

Which begs me to ask...what happens if you program a black key to the 170 since it doesn't come with one? Is the routine still there to limit boost via the bypass with it?

 

[Speedy!]

Black key table is still in the tune, but the multiplier is 1.00 so it'll just be max boost but yeah something coulda been done I have no idea why it wasn't.

 

[16GoManGoHC2]

I believe the manual comments about this Speedy
Full power at E65
It also talks about excessive Ethanol will have a power reducing affect due to the limited capacity of the injectors

I m not sure if that would turn into a miss or a lean situation

lean would turn into a miss after the plug tips where gone, like pictured lol

 

[Reillyrob]

A friend of minr bought a 170 and had one of the best Hemi shops in the country break the car in on a Dyno. The first thing they did was swap the plugs.

 

[fubar569]

Black key table is still in the tune, but the multiplier is 1.00 so it'll just be max boost but yeah something coulda been done I have no idea why it wasn't.

I don't see a bunch of people bothering to tune their 170's just for this capability but...now you have me wanting to play around with this on my 18 some and see if it's possible.

I seem to recall the problem that some tuners were having is getting the car into PE on the black key when trying to use it to bleed boost. Some OS cals it would work flawless and others were a total crapshoot.

 

[Speedy!]

PE was a problem on mine with black key. I did have my 93 tune setup to black key only and limited boost on that tune as well on the old car after the 2.7 blower.

 

[Speedy!]

A friend of minr bought a 170 and had one of the best Hemi shops in the country break the car in on a Dyno. The first thing they did was swap the plugs.

So far I've not seen anything indicating a plug change is needed on mine. I'll confirm at the track for sure though. With a plug swap being like $600 it's easy money for a shop so something to think about when it's being suggested.

 

[Unholy707]

Only cost of a plugs. I have a swivel spake plug socket and a few extensions specially to do the plugs, magnetic too. And a piece of hose to lower them in. Have done the plugs twice in mine, not looking forward to doing it again. Takes an hour just to gap the damn things lol

So far I've not seen anything indicating a plug change is needed on mine. I'll confirm at the track for sure though. With a plug swap being like $600 it's easy money for a shop so something to think about when it's being suggested.

 

[Speedy!]

True but I've not seen any personal Demon owners that wrench on their own junk so labor cost is a thing.

You or Jon can come do mine when needed and I'll provide the beer and music. Hope you like EDM

 

[Unholy707]

What? This guy just pulled his 170s engine what are you talking about 😅😂

True but I've not seen any personal Demon owners that wrench on their own junk so labor cost is a thing.

You or Jon can come do mine when needed and I'll provide the beer and music. Hope you like EDM

 

[Unholy707]

duralast 5/8 part number 52-135. Magnetic spark plug socket with built in swivel extension. Angles it PERFECT to get plugs out straight up and down right above valve cover baffle humps

 

[Unholy707]

I’ve been meaning to do mine again but want to save up some coin to get the manton valve covers so it’s easy times going forward

 

[2ndgen]

Takes an hour just to gap the damn things lol

I just do it while watching TV.