Volumetric EfficeincyTuning Using the Speed Density Principle

[fumanchu182]

So I have decided to take the car off of ANN, last season was great but I would like to move away from race gas and move to E85. In order for me to do that I have to convert the car from ANN and use the VE tables. So to get started I did the following in my tune:

1. Disabled ANN (Engine -> Airflow -> Neural Network -> General)
2. Zeroed out Power Enrichment tables (save default values, Engine -> Fuel -> Power Enrich -> Power Enrichment)
3. Disabled COT Protection (Engine -> Fuel -> Temp. Control -> Catalyst Protection)
4. Disabled DFCO (Engine -> Fuel -> Cutoff, DFCO -> Deceleration Fuel Cutoff, set to 300).

Then I setup my histograms in VCM Scanner as per the instructions in some of the courses as I have taken and this is where things have gotten a little wonky. The Graphs they supply need the following channels logged: Engine RPM (pick your flavor), Pressure Ratio, LTFT Bank 1 and 2 (SAE), STFT Bank 1 and 2 (SAE). Then the graph they provide has the following configuration after I copied the PRatio and RPM labels from the VE Bank 1 table (44273).



Then I went for a quick drive around the block but as you can see the graph wasn't populating at all with data.


So I noticed that STFT were way off the reservation and so then I changed my histograms for the logging to be use the LTFT+STFT for part throttle and I started to get a lot more data populated.



However I can't tell what is the proper way to setup of the histogram. If anyone would like to contribute to this thread please do so. I plan on this being an open source knowledge share so individuals that want to switch to using the VE tables and tune using community knowledge won't be afraid to do so. Also I went to HP Tuners site and looked in the Mopar section and could not find a good example of how individuals were logging this data to make corrections. They have a great Inj. PW vs Fuel Mass article but nothing regarding this topic. Even checked @Speedy! old youtube vidya's but couldn't find anything either. For all the protections that I disabled, it is important that when you have finished your tuning cycle to return all those values back, I saved mine in an excel spread sheet. It is also important to understand that you do not go above 50% throttle or 4000 RPM when doing part throttle tuning.

 

[Paladin06]

Thanks for sharing but can you plz speak English?

 

[fumanchu182]

Thanks for sharing but can you plz speak English?

Get back in the cage... who let you out!

 

[Stormtrooper1320]

So I have decided to take the car off of ANN, last season was great but I would like to move away from race gas and move to E85. In order for me to do that I have to convert the car from ANN and use the VE tables. So to get started I did the following in my tune:

1. Disabled ANN (Engine -> Airflow -> Neural Network -> General)
2. Zeroed out Power Enrichment tables (save default values, Engine -> Fuel -> Power Enrich -> Power Enrichment)
3. Disabled COT Protection (Engine -> Fuel -> Temp. Control -> Catalyst Protection)
4. Disabled DFCO (Engine -> Fuel -> Cutoff, DFCO -> Deceleration Fuel Cutoff, set to 300).

Then I setup my histograms in VCM Scanner as per the instructions in some of the courses as I have taken and this is where things have gotten a little wonky. The Graphs they supply need the following channels logged: Engine RPM (pick your flavor), Pressure Ratio, LTFT Bank 1 and 2 (SAE), STFT Bank 1 and 2 (SAE). Then the graph they provide has the following configuration after I copied the PRatio and RPM labels from the VE Bank 1 table (44273).

View attachment 60187

Then I went for a quick drive around the block but as you can see the graph wasn't populating at all with data.
View attachment 60188

So I noticed that STFT were way off the reservation and so then I changed my histograms for the logging to be use the LTFT+STFT for part throttle and I started to get a lot more data populated.

View attachment 60189

However I can't tell what is the proper way to setup of the histogram. If anyone would like to contribute to this thread please do so. I plan on this being an open source knowledge share so individuals that want to switch to using the VE tables and tune using community knowledge won't be afraid to do so. Also I went to HP Tuners site and looked in the Mopar section and could not find a good example of how individuals were logging this data to make corrections. They have a great Inj. PW vs Fuel Mass article but nothing regarding this topic. Even checked @Speedy! old youtube vidya's but couldn't find anything either. For all the protections that I disabled, it is important that when you have finished your tuning cycle to return all those values back, I saved mine in an excel spread sheet. It is also important to understand that you do not go above 50% throttle or 4000 RPM when doing part throttle tuning.

I appreciate every baker that endeavored to make the perfect chocolate cake.

 

[jonx96]

I have not attempted this yet as I feel like ANN still works fine for me. The hardest part will be if you look at the VE table that is in the stock tune it is so far off I’d be worried about even part throttle tuning. I’ve went back and forth in a few threads disagreeing with people on how this works.
when you read the hp tuners forum it says the VE tables are not used when NN is enabled. Understanding how a neural network works this cannot be true. A neroul network takes data and spits out different data. It is my understanding that NN takes the data in the VE tables and spits it out in better data.
That is why I would like some sort of data before I even attempt to tune VE. the stock table is terrible. That is because NN translates it and out puts what is needed. I’m curious how this goes for you. Thanks for sharing progress so far and for sure keep us post. I wish I could be more help but I’ll let you try first 😊
If you are having a hard time with getting data look up goat rope garage on YouTube. The Chevy stuff is similar when it comes to VE

 

[fumanchu182]

I have not attempted this yet as I feel like ANN still works fine for me. The hardest part will be if you look at the VE table that is in the stock tune it is so far off I’d be worried about even part throttle tuning. I’ve went back and forth in a few threads disagreeing with people on how this works.
when you read the hp tuners forum it says the VE tables are not used when NN is enabled. Understanding how a neural network works this cannot be true. A neroul network takes data and spits out different data. It is my understanding that NN takes the data in the VE tables and spits it out in better data.
That is why I would like some sort of data before I even attempt to tune VE. the stock table is terrible. That is because NN translates it and out puts what is needed. I’m curious how this goes for you. Thanks for sharing progress so far and for sure keep us post. I wish I could be more help but I’ll let you try first 😊
If you are having a hard time with getting data look up goat rope garage on YouTube. The Chevy stuff is similar when it comes to VE

I don't know how the ANN system works as I haven't gotten my slimy hooks on the actual firmware and went through it. However I did find this video:

. It seems he is using LTFT+STFT and Pietz is a tuning legend in the Mopar world so I'm going to emulate his table setup (not map though as that is not how we tune). I'm going to take it for a spin Tuesday and see how it it goes, worst case scenario I put it back to ANN for the time being.

 

[fumanchu182]

Setting it up the way he did it and looking at the historical data I can see I got my work cut out for me. So as an addendum to anyone that bought the Tuning School books and are wondering why Long Term Fuel Trim (sensor) might not give you all the data it was suggested you have to drive the vehicle for a very long time to accumulate data. Considering this car is now a grocery getter and track slut the following configuration is way better:



I will keep a running log of the weeks data and share in this thread. I'm happy I can start seeing the data I need. Stay tuned.

 

[jonx96]

Peitz does a lot and a lot of tuning training for HP Tuners. I reached out to him for training last year. He emailed right back that night saying hp tuners was sending him to the Middle East to teach a class.
he said someone would get back to me. But I’m guessing he got busy on the trip. I never held it against him.
I’d think throwing short term in there is fine as long as long as you drive enough. Same as dialing injectors I never bought their hemi book.
Those red 20s are ugly for sure.
Did you just start with the stock VE table?

 

[fumanchu182]

Hold the presses, Math makes more sense drunk. So I was thinking about this and I got it all wrong. In some other training I have taken what if we can short circuit the Speed Density principle. i.e. just calculate the difference in actual eq ratio vs eq ratio commanded. Okay so HP Tuners and the Tuning school books already do this but they use some janky terminology. Lets take some data from a point in time for a lean condition.

wb1: 1.11
wb2: 1.07
commanded eq ratio: 1 (when it would never be this is my guess)

wb average: 1.11 + 1.07 = 2.18/2 = 1.09
so to find the percentage that I am off lets do some more maths (keep pemdas in your head)
100 * (1.09 - 1) / 1
100 * (.09) / 1 = 9/1 = 9

This means we are off of our target by 9%. Now that I have reversed the math I will be setting up the Histogram as follows and loggin EQ Err.



This makes so much more sense in my head as for the given air mass in grams I am not inserting enough fuel into the system (negative means rich, positive means lean).

 

[fumanchu182]

Peitz does a lot and a lot of tuning training for HP Tuners. I reached out to him for training last year. He emailed right back that night saying hp tuners was sending him to the Middle East to teach a class.
he said someone would get back to me. But I’m guessing he got busy on the trip. I never held it against him.
I’d think throwing short term in there is fine as long as long as you drive enough. Same as dialing injectors I never bought their hemi book.
Those red 20s are ugly for sure.
Did you just start with the stock VE table?

Yes starting with the stock VE table.

 

[1971demon]

Thanks for sharing but can you plz speak English?

God I'm glad it wasn't just me..

 

[jonx96]

Remember to fill in as many parts of the table as you can. Use a spread sheet to copy and add values for the missing spots. Unlike injectors you aren’t going to want to make major changes to one part at a time. You want to keep (make in this case) as smooth as possible.
Edit wording fix
I meant you don’t want to skip cells in a area. The spread sheet helps fill in black cells

 

[vortecd]

Peitz does a lot and a lot of tuning training for HP Tuners. I reached out to him for training last year. He emailed right back that night saying hp tuners was sending him to the Middle East to teach a class.
he said someone would get back to me. But I’m guessing he got busy on the trip. I never held it against him.
I’d think throwing short term in there is fine as long as long as you drive enough. Same as dialing injectors I never bought their hemi book.
Those red 20s are ugly for sure.
Did you just start with the stock VE table?

You may need to reach out to him again

 

[ACMAVRO]

Subscribed

 

[white1]

Ive been considering doing the same (getting off ANN and going to VE)
Commonly I dont worry about STFT on NA stuff. I have to keep reminding myself that the Hellcats are closed loop all the time using a wideband, so I agree the LTFT+STFT is the way to go.

 

[Speedy!]

 

[Mean Cat]

This is over my head which is why I pay Alex Peitz to do it for me.
He's one of the best if not the best tuner in the country that is not known as much as others.

 

[Speedy!]

I'm curious why you'd want to disable ANN and go straight VE unless you're running some big cam or something? ANN works pretty good especially with VVT cam settings.

I've got 93, 109, straight E85, and Flex Fuel tunes all working probably better than OEM with ANN turned on still.

 

[fumanchu182]

I didnt think using ANN with E85 was a thing. However this is something I wanted to learn so I took the plunge. I may just have gotten a stand alone ECU for future fun. Of course I’d also like easy if ANN can do that.

can you just scale the inj pw. Vs fuel mass by 30% to account for the fuel needed?

I'm curious why you'd want to disable ANN and go straight VE unless you're running some big cam or something? ANN works pretty good especially with VVT cam settings.

I've got 93, 109, straight E85, and Flex Fuel tunes all working probably better than OEM with ANN turned on still.

 

[Speedy!]

ANN can for sure handle E85.

You can simply rescale the injectors, but I like my dash to read the AFR of the fuel I'm running, so I reset the fueling to match that of E85. It's pretty straight forward but most pro tuners don't do it for some reason. Maybe to keep from confusing customers or something.

Bottom line when I have E85 in the tank and my E85 tune loaded I see like 9.5 or so AFR at idle on the dash which is correct for stoich on E85.