Redeyes: Modded and Dyno'd

[Speedy!]

I've questioned what the issue is with the orange tint from MMT. I did some reading on it a while back. There was a thread on the other forum from a guy that put Boostane in every tank and a year later gave an update. No fouled plugs or any sensor issues and he used it EVERY tank for a year according to his report. I have about a half can left in my cabinet in the shop from where I tested it. It does work.

@motorhead brings up a point about consistency though. In my opinion, most folks just aren't disciplined enough to insure they have the same amount of fuel in the car each time, etc. I'm anal about these types of things so no big deal to me, but your average joe just wants to show up to the track with whatever amount of fuel is in the tank and dump in a can of this stuff. That may be OK, but it may not be. I'd rather be sure and know exactly what my octane should be based on the mix.

I use alcohol (methanol) injection very successfully on my non-intercooled supercharged 2002 4Runner. Adding that system gave me back 7-8 degrees of timing and the truck runs very well. It took me a while to get the nozzle size and alcohol mixture figured out to avoid bogging down low and provide proper AFR up top though, and again this requires a bit of OCD to keep it consistent. On a Hellcat with it's wideband sensors, I'm not sure how well it would work. I'm thinking the car would start to pull fuel from the injectors to compensate for the extra fuel the injection would provide. Maybe not a big deal if you got it setup right, but definitely something to be aware of since the Hellcat is wideband all the time rather than open/closed loop like older cars.

 

[motorhead]

I use alcohol (methanol) injection very successfully on my non-intercooled supercharged 2002 4Runner. Adding that system gave me back 7-8 degrees of timing and the truck runs very well. It took me a while to get the nozzle size and alcohol mixture figured out to avoid bogging down low and provide proper AFR up top though, and again this requires a bit of OCD to keep it consistent. On a Hellcat with it's wideband sensors, I'm not sure how well it would work. I'm thinking the car would start to pull fuel from the injectors to compensate for the extra fuel the injection would provide. Maybe not a big deal if you got it setup right, but definitely something to be aware of since the Hellcat is wideband all the time rather than open/closed loop like older cars.

Yes, the PCM will reduce the IDC to compensate for the reading at the WB02s - and given that these cars are running WB02s in each bank it will trim the fuel by bank in realtime. The PCM has individual VE calibrations for each bank for just this reason. So even if there was a slight variation in the alcohol distribution bank to bank it would adjust accordingly. I am not certain of the adjustment rate - but, you'd have to assume it is in milliseconds to keep it at the Target Air Fuel Ratio (TAFR) and preserve the engine the same way it adjusts timing for knock retard.

I've run alcohol and propane injection at the same time on the same engine using Closed Loop fueling (idle, low/mid/high load, lean cruise, etc) on an engine that was on full-kill (30psi) all the time. I could put whatever I wanted in the gas tank (94 w/E10 blend), in the alcohol container (donkey piss or washer fluid), and make whatever injection quantity adjustments to the propane system I wanted (base pressure, DC% at the solenoid, and/or flow through an orifice) and whatever the TAFR was it inherently made the adjustment back to that figure. I never ran out of alcohol or propane on a pass, but if I did the system would have caught it and bumped up the injectors to compensate.

The obvious catch is you need enough injector flow rate headroom to compensate for the percentage of fuel you are supplementally spraying as part of the fail safe. I mean if you are willing to put a pulley or dampener cover on that extends you to the full range of your injectors how could injecting 10% more fuel from alcohol be any more irresponsible? The PCM doesn't care - because Lambda.

But, just think about all of that unpulled timing, cooler charge temps, clean piston tops, and octane... mmmm...

 

[Jack_Toepfer]

But, just think about all of that unpulled timing, cooler charge temps, clean piston tops, and octane... mmmm...

I do think about those things, which is why I'm an advocate for meth injection - but not in-lieu of - actual octane. Use it to cool the air, maintain timing, but not as octane. That's my $0.02.

So what part of what I said was anecdotal or wrong? Having high octane fuel for high octane mode on a RedEye is better than running meth instead. I don't care to argue that point, I think it stands on its own. It isn't a bias or fear on my part... you're preaching to the choir. There are only a handful of meth injected HCs that I've actually seen... haven't heard much from them. Nice installs too.

Having too little octane available kicks you out of HO mode, not boom. It also isn't a sudden thing, like all of a sudden mid-pass your out of booster in the gas tank...
If you're worried about inconsistencies between tanks of 93 gas from the pump, you're too close to the edge to begin with.

Not mixing properly, would be improper use - and would just kick you out of HO mode. When you pump 8 gallons of 93 at the gas station, you then add X amount from the can. Sure, you could screw it up... it'll only effect you for 1 tank of gas, or 2 days of driving. Once your satisfied with your base (what's in the tank) keeping it that way isn't difficult. Not sure what's in the tank? Either just run the car out of HO mode, or waste the $40 in gas you just put in it and pump it out for the lawnmower.

I was next to a car that blew up a brand new LT1 motor because he wanted to run a 76mm turbo without a bigger DI fuel system, and without putting high octane in the tank, so his meth injected motor popped right in front of me. The car should have been tuned for 93 octane, nothing more. Was the meth injection to blame? Maybe, but it was definitely the builder/tuner/owner who thought they could use it to make 700whp all day every day because #methinjectionisareplacementforoctane ... I know of a lot of cars that get away with it, but they do so because they don't rely on it to keep the car together.

FWIW - I was going to run propane to help with MPGs on my truck, but decided that I would just convert it to Veggie instead... which worked out well. I've always been into alternative fuels, additives, and doing more with less - I just don't think that meth is the answer to everything, especially when we're talking about a mod that is 100% relying on high octane.

 

[motorhead]

I do think about those things, which is why I'm an advocate for meth injection - but not in-lieu of - actual octane. Use it to cool the air, maintain timing, but not as octane. That's my $0.02.

So what part of what I said was anecdotal or wrong? Having high octane fuel for high octane mode on a RedEye is better than running meth instead. I don't care to argue that point, I think it stands on its own. It isn't a bias or fear on my part... you're preaching to the choir. There are only a handful of meth injected HCs that I've actually seen... haven't heard much from them. Nice installs too.

Having too little octane available kicks you out of HO mode, not boom. It also isn't a sudden thing, like all of a sudden mid-pass your out of booster in the gas tank...
If you're worried about inconsistencies between tanks of 93 gas from the pump, you're too close to the edge to begin with.

Not mixing properly, would be improper use - and would just kick you out of HO mode. When you pump 8 gallons of 93 at the gas station, you then add X amount from the can. Sure, you could screw it up... it'll only effect you for 1 tank of gas, or 2 days of driving. Once your satisfied with your base (what's in the tank) keeping it that way isn't difficult. Not sure what's in the tank? Either just run the car out of HO mode, or waste the $40 in gas you just put in it and pump it out for the lawnmower.

I was next to a car that blew up a brand new LT1 motor because he wanted to run a 76mm turbo without a bigger DI fuel system, and without putting high octane in the tank, so his meth injected motor popped right in front of me. The car should have been tuned for 93 octane, nothing more. Was the meth injection to blame? Maybe, but it was definitely the builder/tuner/owner who thought they could use it to make 700whp all day every day because #methinjectionisareplacementforoctane ... I know of a lot of cars that get away with it, but they do so because they don't rely on it to keep the car together.

FWIW - I was going to run propane to help with MPGs on my truck, but decided that I would just convert it to Veggie instead... which worked out well. I've always been into alternative fuels, additives, and doing more with less - I just don't think that meth is the answer to everything, especially when we're talking about a mod that is 100% relying on high octane.

I believe we are arguing the same thing just differently. At the end of the day there are consequences.

The anecodotal evidence of "I heard a guy blew his engine using meth" is the first 10-100 answers you'll get on facebook if someone raises the question. What they really meant to say was "I heard a guy on meth blew his engine, and I also like taking meth". So, if I see people unjustifiably denouncing it without any emperical evidence of their own that BS is getting called. If I am presented with the option of a can of Liquid Schwartz or meth/propane injection - I'll take the latter every time. But, I also installed a native flex fuel sensor in my TBSS to do it right if we ever get an E85 pump back up here.

 

[coolblue]

@Jack_Toepfer. Yes I was referring to the arbitrary color. It shouldn't matter if it works. As long as no oil, pitted or cracked porcelain and knock sensors are reading good. Yes also agree the plugs, chambers, exhaust pipes etc. are also coated, even when not orange, but I don't know what's a harmful coating for sensors and cat's. If the orange (MMT) coating is not harmful I wouldn't be bothered a bit.
@Speedy! I'm also anal to the point I would put four individual 5 gal. cans in the back of my truck and fill each one with 4 gal's of gas and mix in exactly 1/4 bottle of boost to each one (one can would treat 16 gal's), that way the mix would always be right. But I made the jump to modern iron so I wouldn't have to mix anymore, get better gas mileage, no stink out the back, and more manners to take long trips and listen to radio. Ya' know the magic of computers giving you it ALL. Plus I think Challenger's are beautiful so not a compromise. Now I'm back to looking at this fuel sh*& again if I kick it up a bit. WTF!
@motorhead I think the propane, meth alternatives are viable and intriguing but it's easier for people to just pour in a pre-made elixir. (but, expensive! Lazy does have it's price.)

 

[Hpmaniac]

I'm probably the only person in the United states with baby bottles filled with boostane in the trunk of there redeye! I add the exact amount everytime I fill up, works great.

 

[Jack_Toepfer]

I'm probably the only person in the United states with baby bottles filled with boostane in the trunk of there redeye! I add the exact amount everytime I fill up, works great.

Lots of Demon guys are with you too.

 

[motorhead]

https://bimmertips.com/bmw-m4-gts-water-injection-explained/

If BMW owners can fill a water tank, why can't you?

 

[2fast4u]

@motorhead...I want more octane, water doesn't accomplish that!

 

[motorhead]

@motorhead...I want more octane, water doesn't accomplish that!

FFS. Are you for real?

 

[2fast4u]

ROLMFAO!!!!

 

[Finface]

Gents,

At great risk here of a rebuke (new guy) reading this post I remembered something about it in my 2019 Dodge Challenger SRT manual. Here are the two excerpts;

"Methylcyclopentadienyl Manganese Tricarbonyl (MMT) is a manganese-containing metallic additive that is blended into some gasoline to increase octane. Gasoline blended with MMT provides no performance advantage beyond gasoline of the same octane number without MMT. Gasoline blended with MMT reduces spark plug life and reduces emissions system performance in some vehicles. The manufacturer recommends that gasoline without MMT be used in your vehicle. The MMT content of gasoline may not be indicated on the gasoline pump, therefore, you should ask your gasoline retailer whether the gasoline contains MMT. MMT is prohibited in Federal and California reformulated gasoline."

And on the same page 395, Technical Specifications;

"The use of fuel additives, which are now being sold as octane enhancers, is not recommended. Most of these products contain high concentrations of methanol. Fues system damage or vehicle performance problems resulting from the use of such fuels or additives is not the responsibility of the manufacturer and may void or not be covered under the New Vehicle Limited Warranty."

Don't shoot the messenger!

 

[16GoManGoHC2]

Octanium Unleaded formulated a bit different then past octane boosters, it does work well.

 

[Finface]

You're probably on solid ground if they've made all those improvements, and their claims are correct. If so, you wouldn't have a warranty issued related to the additive. I'm probably taking chances with my warranty too - really just more interested if a product like this, updated to address previous issues, works.

I'm not well-versed in these modern cars, but if the car adjusted on the fly as the octane changed either up or down, then that's pretty impressive!

 

[motorhead]

You're probably on solid ground if they've made all those improvements, and their claims are correct. If so, you wouldn't have a warranty issued related to the additive. I'm probably taking chances with my warranty too - really just more interested if a product like this, updated to address previous issues, works.

I'm not well-versed in these modern cars, but if the car adjusted on the fly as the octane changed either up or down, then that's pretty impressive!

Orange crap on everything would be a pretty good indication of MMT usage, and grounds for voiding Mr. Warranty. You might be able to pull and change 16 plugs (brand new - LOL) but not every nook and cranny full of Dorito dust. That said, I am not buying the addition of methanol to the mix being causational or detectable in the face of a failure - that's a stretch.

Imma just gonna leave this here:

http://www.enginebasics.com/Advanced Engine Tuning/Watermeth injection.html

 

[Finface]

Motorhead,

Good point about MMT being detectable. I didn't mean to indicate I wanted to use MMT. I'm hoping to go to Challengerfest this year and my neighbor, who has been, said there will be "tuners" there. He has a 2017 Hellcat and is very interested in what is available. I'm curious and always wanting to better understand these amazing cars.

If you stand back a bit and consider how wonderful it is that FCA will sell engines over 700 HP and warranty them for 5 years or 60,000 miles...like the six month oil change requirement that captures a broad array of driving styles and stresses, saying we can't boost the HP and still have their backing seems pretty reasonable.

I think back to my first car, a 1964 and a half Mustang with the 260 cubic inch V-8 - I think it had about 160 HP with its little two barrel carb...and I marvel.

Best

Finface

 

[Decay]

Motorhead,

Good point about MMT being detectable. I didn't mean to indicate I wanted to use MMT. I'm hoping to go to Challengerfest this year and my neighbor, who has been, said there will be "tuners" there. He has a 2017 Hellcat and is very interested in what is available. I'm curious and always wanting to better understand these amazing cars.

If you stand back a bit and consider how wonderful it is that FCA will sell engines over 700 HP and warranty them for 5 years or 60,000 miles...like the six month oil change requirement that captures a broad array of driving styles and stresses, saying we can't boost the HP and still have their backing seems pretty reasonable.

I think back to my first car, a 1964 and a half Mustang with the 260 cubic inch V-8 - I think it had about 160 HP with its little two barrel carb...and I marvel.

Best

Finface

And you usually had a trunk full of tools and spare parts!