Flex Fuel Tuning

[Hpindy]

ID1300X2 where designed with flex in mind and idle and part throttle stability when on gasoline. It’s what I originally planned to use and had a set but sold them when I found a tuner that said by 1050X’s where plenty for E85 and 17 psi of boost I sold the 1300X2’s to fund the tune.
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Ah Crap.

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[Hpindy]

Yep. Those.

The ID injector data and their consistency is a big reason why they're popular. It makes that part of the process so much easier and in the hands of a gifted tuner the idle/part throttle is as good as you can ask for.

Perfect. I have been leaning towards these injectors .

Thanks

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[16GoManGoHC2]

Ah Crap.

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Don’t fret, they all take fine tuning to get inference spot on any ways and your just the guy that can do that yourself so your golden with probably any injector!!

 

[Speedy!]

Gotta love Speedway. Just filled with E85 and decided to test it since it's about to be November. Still full on E85

 

[16GoManGoHC2]

Gotta love Speedway. Just filled with E85 and decided to test it since it's about to be November. Still full on E85

Lucky you!! It’s down to 73% here
I still have 15 gallons of 83, keeping the % High as possible for next dyno visit 11/5.
I found out last night a bigger TB doesn’t necessarily mean more power. I’ve been fighting trying to get rid of a degree or 2 of Kr and I took over 4 degrees of timing out and it still wouldn’t fully go away. So I went back to my Fastman 95 from the BBK 100 and ran the car again, this was within an hour of each other and back on full tune before the timing reductions. It ran with no where near the same amount of Kr the bigger TB was producing, but weirdly produced the EXACT same displayed at least aircharge numbers, around 1940mg between 5400 and 6000 rpm’s. I’m thinking the car really didn’t know the amount of extra air it was getting and running on the lean side? Which was making the increased KR? Possibly??
I also noticed in the bigger TB fuel % calculation became more erroneous towards the lower side. Running around 80% at least in the tank. Car said 73% with the FM but 64-66% with the BBK. I’m thinking the AFR targets were a lot leaner sensing the lower percent of ethanol versus the higher percent which added to the issue of being lean and producing Kr??
Thoughts??

 

[Hpindy]

A engine can only ingest so much air. You might have hit the limit with the 95 mm already .
Try putting the 95mm back on and retest .
Also . Try loading an older pump gas only tune to reset the alcohol % to 0 . Then reload your current flex fuel tune and test to see how the % recalculates .

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[16GoManGoHC2]

Did just that last night,reloaded a 93 tune to set it back to zero. It went right back to 64-66%. Put the FM 95 TB on it, did the same reset and it went to 73.5%. I just added 12 gallons of tested E80 this am and it went to 77%. Fuel trims at idle almost 0. I think I’m going to leave it this way for a bit. It’s showing it’s making power, 1/4’s are back up to 138-139 mph from 135-136 when it didn’t seem happy. All this testing took place last night from 5 pm until 12:30 am, I just had to know while atmospheric conditions where the same. This am just went and laid down 2 1/4’s in the 138-139 mph range again even with super shitty 4.8 0-60 and 2.4-2.6 60 fts
On to Halloween party preparations in a good note!!! It’s 35F here, traction is VERY limited lol

 

[Speedy!]

Lucky you!! It’s down to 73% here
I still have 15 gallons of 83, keeping the % High as possible for next dyno visit 11/5.
I found out last night a bigger TB doesn’t necessarily mean more power. I’ve been fighting trying to get rid of a degree or 2 of Kr and I took over 4 degrees of timing out and it still wouldn’t fully go away. So I went back to my Fastman 95 from the BBK 100 and ran the car again, this was within an hour of each other and back on full tune before the timing reductions. It ran with no where near the same amount of Kr the bigger TB was producing, but weirdly produced the EXACT same displayed at least aircharge numbers, around 1940mg between 5400 and 6000 rpm’s. I’m thinking the car really didn’t know the amount of extra air it was getting and running on the lean side? Which was making the increased KR? Possibly??
I also noticed in the bigger TB fuel % calculation became more erroneous towards the lower side. Running around 80% at least in the tank. Car said 73% with the FM but 64-66% with the BBK. I’m thinking the AFR targets were a lot leaner sensing the lower percent of ethanol versus the higher percent which added to the issue of being lean and producing Kr??
Thoughts??

What I'll throw out there is that I think it'd be pretty hard for the car to run lean unless you ran out of fuel pump or injector. The wide bands keep the car where it's supposed to be from a commanded fuel perspective, it's the trims that would show any differences in air flow going positive to maintain the commanded fueling. The trims can swing + or - 30% before throwing a CEL but you definitely want them closer than that.

On the KR what I've noticed with mine is that it would want to generate some false knock at 2,000 and 4,000 RPM. I pulled all the timing out at 4,000 I'm talking zero deg in the tune and it would still show KR. What I noticed is that it seems to have a severity multiplier if that makes sense. For example if I put zero degrees of timing at 4,000 RPM and 1700 aircharge it would get 3 deg of STKR. If I put 6 degrees of timing at 4,000 RPM it would get 7 deg of STKR.

I had Crew Chief Greg follow me looking for puffs of smoke from the exhaust while data logging knock and he didn't see anything, so I went in and adjusted the knock sensors to get rid of it as it was obviously false.

Mike from OST actually had an HD camera filming the rear of the cars he tunes with a big screen monitor he can watch looking for those tell tell puffs for knock.

 

[16GoManGoHC2]

What I'll throw out there is that I think it'd be pretty hard for the car to run lean unless you ran out of fuel pump or injector. The wide bands keep the car where it's supposed to be from a commanded fuel perspective, it's the trims that would show any differences in air flow going positive to maintain the commanded fueling. The trims can swing + or - 30% before throwing a CEL but you definitely want them closer than that.

On the KR what I've noticed with mine is that it would want to generate some false knock at 2,000 and 4,000 RPM. I pulled all the timing out at 4,000 I'm talking zero deg in the tune and it would still show KR. What I noticed is that it seems to have a severity multiplier if that makes sense. For example if I put zero degrees of timing at 4,000 RPM and 1700 aircharge it would get 3 deg of STKR. If I put 6 degrees of timing at 4,000 RPM it would get 7 deg of STKR.

I had Crew Chief Greg follow me looking for puffs of smoke from the exhaust while data logging knock and he didn't see anything, so I went in and adjusted the knock sensors to get rid of it as it was obviously false.

Mike from OST actually had an HD camera filming the rear of the cars he tunes with a big screen monitor he can watch looking for those tell tell puffs for knock.

THANKS for the info!!
What I’m referring to mixture wise is just that commanded. Car senses only 64% E but is actually 80. So car is commanding a leaner target AFR which is too lean for the timing and fuel it’s actually running on. When percent is sensed right it’s following the right path but when it not it’s too lean. Lower the E % the leaner the commanded AFR right?
I think I have allot of false knock as well, my sensors set stock yet. Need to work on them yet.

 

[Speedy!]

I believe the time or two mine calculated E% wrong it still had proper fueling the trims were just way off.

 

[Speedy!]

Confirmed. I've been testing in colder air and put in measured E85 and the car calculated it as E77. My fuel trims are +20% at WOT but lambda is still as commanded. I checked older logs where it calculated E85 as E85 and fuel trims were 5-10% at WOT.

 

[16GoManGoHC2]

Confirmed. I've been testing in colder air and put in measured E85 and the car calculated it as E77. My fuel trims are +20% at WOT but lambda is still as commanded. I checked older logs where it calculated E85 as E85 and fuel trims were 5-10% at WOT.

I think mine isn’t doing that, my WOT trims never go that high. My thought is Car senses fuel at say 64% but it’s running 80%, lamda is set for 64% mix but actually trying to run on 80 so it’s commanding a too lean of condition for 80% fuel?
I picked up a 55 gallon drum of this today to get back up to 85%E
We’ll see how the car calculates it and if knock goes away or not. If Knock stays unchanged with higher octane fuel pretty safe to say it’s false knock?




Tester says it’s 99.5% alcohol

 

[Speedy!]

I'd question your car not using the widebands properly on Flex. That's what it would mean if it detects E60 with it actually being E80 and running lean. What did your logs say for lambda at WOT? On 93 I have mine commanding .83(ish) and on E85 .815 so they're pretty close and wouldn't be far off regardless.

There's just a simple multiplier in the tune for alcohol content percent.

If you run the car on that E99 keep an eye on injector DC. At 6500 RPM, 1700 aircharge, 60 degree air, mine are 73% DC so doing good. Gonna try to test today in 50 degree air and again in 40. That's about as cold as I can really get on it around here without the car trying to swap ends with itself.

 

[fubar569]

Even when my car senses ethanol percentage one way or the other the wide bands always do their job to bring it back to commanded. Whether that be at part throttle or wide open throttle.

If your car senses ethanol lower than actual your trims should be positive as it would be a leaner burn due to higher actual content.

Sensing the opposite...content higher than actual testing...should result in negative trims. The car would be throwing more fuel at it than it needs to. Lower ethanol content would burn "rich".

I plan to really dive back into this in the spring and try to find some ethanol free 93 to baseline on.

 

[Hpindy]

What I have found is if I am just driving around the car will calculate ethanol % quickly then pause for a short time then it will fine tune itself if you keep driving and it works perfectly. If I want to beat on the car like now I will load a pump gas only tune to get the content to 0% then reinstall the flex fuel tune and the car will calculate it very quickly and accurately.
My car seems to be happy with +/- 3% swings on the trims if I don't do a full reset and my ethanol content could be 5-7% off . Which is ok for every day driving .
I did a test the night before I put my car away . The content was showing 31% and the car ran great . I put in 11 gallons of 0 ethonal fuel so by using an online calculator it said I should be at 11% ethanol. After driving for a bit it settled at 15% I could have kept driving and it would have fined tuned a bit more but I pulled over and did "hard reset" to 0 % ethanol . I drove it and it calculated 12% in a very short time . I did this "hard reset " 3 times and it would always go to 12% and my trims would fantastic only swinging + / - 1.6 % or less with no long term trims . Unfortunately my testing is over till next spring as my car is officially off the road for the winter . Then next spring I will have to redo all my injector scaling on 0 ethonal content to get my 1200's dialed in .

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[Speedy!]

Whew some pucker factor testing complete. 48ish degrees 1800+ aircharge at wot. .811 commanded lambda and inj DC 78.5 at 6500 rpm with a reading of E80.

Tires breaking loose at 85mph is a bit more than I wanna contend with, but I had to know ya know.

 

[Hpindy]

Whew some pucker factor testing complete. 48ish degrees 1800+ aircharge at wot. .811 commanded lambda and inj DC 78.5 at 6500 rpm with a reading of E80.

Tires breaking loose at 85mph is a bit more than I wanna contend with, but I had to know ya know.

It does get a bit "sketchy" . When I was testing in 60F temps I was breaking those stupid pirellis loose at 110mph . You can really feel the difference once you get up to 80% ethonal or more .

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[Speedy!]

I'd never even try on Pirellis. The 555RIIs were doing their best but the sun had gone down and it was getting damp.

 

[Magnified]

E85 is the future for pump gas. You are going to LOVE it.

Make sure to test fuel at the stations before filling up. If you have a tune for E85 and fill up with E50 asking for trouble. One of these $14 test bottles could save your motor.
If you're buying ignite E85/E90 won't have to worry but that stuff is pricey.

I disagree. It's good for high performance applications, but among other reasons it can't go mainstream is there is not enough corn grown in the United States to even begin to approach a broad, general E85 adoption. Now, the 10% and such, that you'll still see b/c of cost and other reasons (including optics - "we're doing something about using less gasoline and creating less emissions" etc...).

 

[Hpindy]

I disagree. It's good for high performance applications, but among other reasons it can't go mainstream is there is not enough corn grown in the United States to even begin to approach a broad, general E85 adoption. Now, the 10% and such, that you'll still see b/c of cost and other reasons (including optics - "we're doing something about using less gasoline and creating less emissions" etc...).

I actually agree with you . It cant be produced fast enough for main stream , it's doesn't store well , and a 30% reduction in MPG will hurt most people .

But as for a performance car it rocks !

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