Other Forced Induction Options.

[motorhead]

This.


View attachment 10972

They make a SBD version.

 

[Stormtrooper1320]

They make a SBD version.

you are on fire today

 

[Jack_Toepfer]

They make a SBD version.

Back in the day I had a Vortech A-Trim on my 5.0 Mustang... made such awesome sounds, the idle surge made it ridiculous... it would just lump and lurch through parking lots...

 

[motorhead]

Witnessing some lobe wear and claiming that there is an abundance of exploding blowers not being reported anywhere - is quite a stretch. We have a fairly large sample of overspun blowers on this very forum... I think 2 of them have had catastrophic failure, and neither of them were directly associated with RPM. So, I'm trying to expand my knowledge of what's making them blow, not what could be making them blow eventually.

Speaking of reputable companies... ProCharger botched the release of their WK2 kits in embarrassing fashion. So much so that our smaller shops had to release their own kits to help people get them to work. ProCharger didn't do any analysis I guess, because they couldn't get the kit to work on any vehicle other than their own. It happens to the best of them, nobody is immune, and I'm not here to bash them... just point out that there is a lot of hearsay coming from you about exploding blowers, and I just wanted to know where they all were. I'm not on Facebook, so that would be an acceptable answer, and really the one I was expecting.

I asked a vendor where the pile of bad Hellcat motors was when they tried scaring everyone into believing that stock crank pulleys are spinning off left and right and wiping out the motors. No evidence was provided, but they did cite how many they have seen, and also how many Hellcats they've serviced. I was able to extrapolate that using the number of Hellcats produced, and there should be thousands of us with bad motors as a result of their significant sample. That also wasn't the case.

It's all good, but I'd still recommend to anyone to pulley the beast and let it eat. Use what FCA gave us because it meets 99% of our needs (runs 8s and crushes at mile+ events)

I've only indicated that there seems to be a trend emerging. We know correlation doesn't equal causation; but it gives reason to investigate. I've seen two grenaded rotor sets to date, and a few scored. But, its not like I have a parade of disappointed Hellcat owners lining up my door holding damaged rotors. Even if I did I'd just tell them to fuck off and go lie in the bed they made. LOL.

What the direct cause of the failures are? Who knows right now - and I think I am the only one asking. Plus, trying to pin it down to any one factor - well that kind of like asking: What causes cancer? No one thing causes (or guarantees) cancer, but you can definitely do a bunch of stupid shit and win a stupid prize. And that's what we're likely seeing here: tiny unclutched pullies, extra engine RPM, poor power management and jarring of the driveline, abuse, etc

You are reading into this a bit too far: I only said Procharger in the context of a household name... Paxton, Vortech, Torqstorm are all easily substituted so don't fixate on that. I'd also say that I am considering multiple sources including Facebook, YouTube, and forums - obviously people don't like to highlight their failings so the information isn't as prevalent as it could be. Moreover, most owners who pay for packages to be installed aren't the kind of folks who'll turn a wrench to investigate a potential problem... or even know what it looks like if they did.

IHI built a nice blower with the intention of a long service life. Pulley way down and raise rotor speed closer to what is likely a proprietary critical speed RPM and the probability of increased wear or a catastrophic event rises dramatically. Hence my original point getting informed and looking to other options if you want a margin of error.

 

[motorhead]

Since I am bored:

The SL55 AMG’s highly efficient Lysholm-type supercharger (manufactured by IHI) features Teflon coated compressor screws and is driven at more than 23,000 rpm at an engine speed of 6500 rpm. At this speed, the blower displaces 1850kg of induction air per hour and generates up to 12 psi of boost pressure. The supercharger is also equipped with an electro-magnetic clutch that is used to switch it on/off depending on rpm and load. A water-to-air intercooler is also used to help achieve that magic 350kW.

Stole this from another post on here about the stock superchargers on a HC, and JonBond upgrades:

Stock OEM ~11.6psi @ 14,800 rpm
A 2.85 pulley and stock lower spins ~14psi @ 17,800 rpm.
Stage 2- $2200 - supports up to 18,000 rpm, upgraded bearings/coatings
Stage 3- $3200 - supports up to 22,000 rpm

https://www.jokerzperf.com/product-page/jokerz-performance-2-4-2-7-3-0-race-rebuild-series

Superchargers are test spun from 4,000 rpms-10,000 rpms to check for rotor clearence, bearing binding or noise, and workmanship is inline for jokerz approval

In addition the spelling mistakes - the other thing that isn't clear is if that rpm range is rotor speed or input speed.

https://www.jokerzperf.com/product-page/hellcat-demon-trackhawk-snout-port

-upper idler, green belt, and fixed upper pulleys may create 150%+ axial torsion and resonance on supercharger assembly resulting in failure. Run at your own risk

 

[motorhead]

Imma just leave this here:

Yes, Virgina it would work on your 426 Gen II HEMI too.

 

[motorhead]

You’ve mentioned blown up blowers several times now... Cole was spinning his as fast as anyone and he only blew his up because of a nitrous backfire. I recall seeing 1 other on here and I think it was related to some bearing repair that went wrong, though I could have that mixed up. Are a lot of people experiencing failures because of RPM?

Here ya go:

 

[Speedy!]

Not sure what to make on the Mod2Fame video. He was spinning his pretty good too. @FFBOS spins his pretty good and daily drives it though.

When my motor blew up, we inspected the blower and it looked perfect. We checked close for any small pieces that got up there etc, luckily none did. I guess the piston sitting at the top of the cylinder blocked any debris from moving around much and the rest ended up in the pan.

Not sure how fast one of these spins with a 2.72 pulley? What's the damper pulley size?

Demonology's too it seems, but he spins it to the moon and races 3 nights a week. Rotors shown at about the 5 min mark.

 

[motorhead]

Not sure what to make on the Mod2Fame video. He was spinning his pretty good too. @FFBOS spins his pretty good and daily drives it though.

When my motor blew up, we inspected the blower and it looked perfect. We checked close for any small pieces that got up there etc, luckily none did. I guess the piston sitting at the top of the cylinder blocked any debris from moving around much and the rest ended up in the pan.

Not sure how fast one of these spins with a 2.72 pulley? What's the damper pulley size?

Demonology's too it seems, but he spins it to the moon and races 3 nights a week.

Jokerz gave a pretty good explaination for one or more possible causes, and Mr. Mod2Fame was pretty clear he was driving the car incorrectly which may have contributed. Jokerz laid it out: 10% UD, 2.7" pulley, and it may be okay on a 2.4L. Go balls out and it is a timebomb.

It pretty much confirms many of my suspicions about the possible root causes... people are just asking too much.

 

[Magnified]

Grade 5 Ceramic Balls... like it says on my boxers.

 

[Magnified]

I think this is a great supporting mod, but they are getting deep enough into the process that I think they should clarify what folks should expect if they are considering going this route as their first modification. Cause some will jump on that band wagon.

 

[Speedy!]

Jokerz gave a pretty good explaination for one or more possible causes, and Mr. Mod2Fame was pretty clear he was driving the car incorrectly which may have contributed. Jokerz laid it out: 10% UD, 2.7" pulley, and it may be okay on a 2.4L. Go balls out and it is a timebomb.

It pretty much confirms many of my suspicions about the possible root causes... people are just asking too much.

Agreed, there's going to be a critical speed on these things where things get funky. On my old car I ran a Magnuson 2.3L TVS and had an efficiency map that showed where limits were as well as where it was most efficient. It was based on P-Ratio if memory serves. I wish we could get that data for the IHI.

Found the stock crank pulley size is 8.190". Formula to determine blower speed is
(crank pulley size / blower pulley size) X RPM

Stock Hellcat
(8.190 / 3.35) x 6000 = 14668 blower RPM

So for a 2.72 Hellraiser on my setup:
(8.190 / 2.72) x 6500 = 19571 blower RPM

For what Jokerz says is the max:
(10% OD Lower) 8.9 / 2.7 x 6500 = 21425 blower RPM

Demonology's setup
(10% OD Lower) 8.9 / 2.65 x 6500 = 21830 blower RPM

 

[Magnified]

It's pretty impressive engineering if they went with a 25% cushion on blower RPM from the factory. That's old school stuff ratio right there.

 

[Hpindy]

Agreed, there's going to be a critical speed on these things where things get funky. On my old car I ran a Magnuson 2.3L TVS and had an efficiency map that showed where limits were as well as where it was most efficient. It was based on P-Ratio if memory serves. I wish we could get that data for the IHI.

Found the stock crank pulley size is 8.190". Formula to determine blower speed is
(crank pulley size / blower pulley size) X RPM

Stock Hellcat
(8.190 / 3.35) x 6000 = 14668 blower RPM

So for a 2.72 Hellraiser on my setup:
(8.190 / 2.72) x 6500 = 19571 blower RPM

For what Jokerz says is the max:
(10% OD Lower) 8.9 / 2.7 x 6500 = 21425 blower RPM

Demonology's setup
(10% OD Lower) 8.9 / 2.65 x 6500 = 21830 blower RPM

That's good in my favor.
8.9 lower ( ATI 10%)
3.35 upper ( stock)
6500 rpms shift points .

All equals 17 psi of boost for me .

Sent from my BBF100-2 using Tapatalk

 

[Magnified]

Here ya go:

I had not been aware of this before. My question is this, and I"m not slamming anyone, I'm trying to understand; why would the tuner or the shop (assuming Mod2Fame did not do the wrenching himself) sign off on this guy having run the mods he did without a fuel setup to support it? Damn.

 

[motorhead]

I had not been aware of this before. My question is this, and I"m not slamming anyone, I'm trying to understand; why would the tuner or the shop (assuming Mod2Fame did not do the wrenching himself) sign off on this guy having run the mods he did without a fuel setup to support it? Damn.

I would assume is the same "logic" applied to running pump gas or over-reving engines. You just cannot shake people from the laziness or "I know better" mentality in this hobby - because exercising restraint or using good judgment is hard.

Imagine back in 2015 the first blower pullies were rushed to market, with each next innovation coming with less and less consideration for the effects. Just profit and exposure.

Eventually a few decent companies started waking up and doing some actual thinking, put lessons learned in to practice and applied restrictions. Hence the packages offered today - less risk and liability for the vendor.

In short people are stupid.

 

[motorhead]

Agreed, there's going to be a critical speed on these things where things get funky. On my old car I ran a Magnuson 2.3L TVS and had an efficiency map that showed where limits were as well as where it was most efficient. It was based on P-Ratio if memory serves. I wish we could get that data for the IHI.

Found the stock crank pulley size is 8.190". Formula to determine blower speed is
(crank pulley size / blower pulley size) X RPM

Stock Hellcat
(8.190 / 3.35) x 6000 = 14668 blower RPM

So for a 2.72 Hellraiser on my setup:
(8.190 / 2.72) x 6500 = 19571 blower RPM

For what Jokerz says is the max:
(10% OD Lower) 8.9 / 2.7 x 6500 = 21425 blower RPM

Demonology's setup
(10% OD Lower) 8.9 / 2.65 x 6500 = 21830 blower RPM

Seems consistent with what I posted above: https://www.hellcatforum.org/threads/other-forced-induction-options.5005/post-51717

Yes, you can do that to a stock blower - but should you? I'd suggest not, and have, the reality is to stop thinking about "boost" and start thinking about mass air flow. Why spin the blower faster than needed when you can lessen the restriction with other modifications that don't impinge on a mechanical part and impart more stress and heat into everything? Change the way you approach the problem: use different forced induction options, improve the air flow efficiency into the factory supercharger (port it, change the snout, etc), port the heads, add lift and duration to the cam, improve the intercooler efficiency and thermal exchange rate, insulate around the motor...

One of the key factors which I don't believe was disclosed or covered in the M2F video is the brand/type of blower pulley he was running. We know that the factory pulley is a Litens clutch pulley, and that had to be put there for a reason. I surmize it is to protect against the rotors against going out of time (as mentioned by Jokerz) when you've got a Dbag smacking in and out of the throttle all day long at load. Put a solid pulley in there and you lose the cushion. No good. Sure lots of folks may just drive a solid pullied car well enough to avoid the prospective damage - but with 40,000 HCs produced how can you risk it as an OEM?

 

[Stormtrooper1320]

Seems consistent with what I posted above: https://www.hellcatforum.org/threads/other-forced-induction-options.5005/post-51717

Yes, you can do that to a stock blower - but should you? I'd suggest not, and have, the reality is to stop thinking about "boost" and start thinking about mass air flow. Why spin the blower faster than needed when you can lessen the restriction with other modifications that don't impinge on a mechanical part and impart more stress and heat into everything? Change the way you approach the problem: use different forced induction options, improve the air flow efficiency into the factory supercharger (port it, change the snout, etc), port the heads, add lift and duration to the cam, improve the intercooler efficiency and thermal exchange rate, insulate around the motor...

One of the key factors which I don't believe was disclosed or covered in the M2F video is the brand/type of blower pulley he was running. We know that the factory pulley is a Litens clutch pulley, and that had to be put there for a reason. I surmize it is to protect against the rotors against going out of time (as mentioned by Jokerz) when you've got a Dbag smacking in and out of the throttle all day long at load. Put a solid pulley in there and you lose the cushion. No good. Sure lots of folks may just drive a solid pullied car well enough to avoid the prospective damage - but with 40,000 HCs produced how can you risk it as an OEM?

I'm no blower expert, but what you say makes sense. All of those parts have some sort of limitation whether it be rpm related or other concerns. It also ties into a program that I was watching within the past few weeks. They were changing the pulley on a Cadillac blower and they were explaining why there was a spring on the back of the pulley, and the short of it was, to reduce the shock loads to the rotors when getting on and off the throttle. And they were saying that since they were now going to put this aftermarket pulley on, that dampening effect would be gone.

Quite a bit of good info in this thread to consider for future purchases of forced induction cars for someone who doesn't own one currently. I've been toying with the idea of a ProCharger on mine but after seeing the nice layout of the new Vortec, it has given me some additional options to consider

 

[motorhead]

I'm no blower expert, but what you say makes sense. All of those parts have some sort of limitation whether it be rpm related or other concerns. It also ties into a program that I was watching within the past few weeks. They were changing the pulley on a Cadillac blower and they were explaining why there was a spring on the back of the pulley, and the short of it was, to reduce the shock loads to the rotors when getting on and off the throttle. And they were saying that since they were now going to put this aftermarket pulley on, that dampening effect would be gone.

Quite a bit of good info in this thread to consider for future purchases of forced induction cars for someone who doesn't own one currently. I've been toying with the idea of a ProCharger on mine but after seeing the nice layout of the new Vortec, it has given me some additional options to consider

That is interesting about the Caddy.

For those reading at home: Look closely at the Hellion turbo kit I posted, those standard twin 62mm turbos are going to provide a lot of extra air. More air than a kit from any vendor, and for greater value for money at under $8000 (how many guys are spending that kind of coin on useless BS? Buy once, cry once). Totally blower safe, has room to grow, and gives you compound boost through twin-charging. If you have a stock HC and want to go really fast reliably that may be one really good option.

 

[Speedy!]

Seems consistent with what I posted above: https://www.hellcatforum.org/threads/other-forced-induction-options.5005/post-51717

Yes, you can do that to a stock blower - but should you? I'd suggest not, and have, the reality is to stop thinking about "boost" and start thinking about mass air flow. Why spin the blower faster than needed when you can lessen the restriction with other modifications that don't impinge on a mechanical part and impart more stress and heat into everything? Change the way you approach the problem: use different forced induction options, improve the air flow efficiency into the factory supercharger (port it, change the snout, etc), port the heads, add lift and duration to the cam, improve the intercooler efficiency and thermal exchange rate, insulate around the motor...

One of the key factors which I don't believe was disclosed or covered in the M2F video is the brand/type of blower pulley he was running. We know that the factory pulley is a Litens clutch pulley, and that had to be put there for a reason. I surmize it is to protect against the rotors against going out of time (as mentioned by Jokerz) when you've got a Dbag smacking in and out of the throttle all day long at load. Put a solid pulley in there and you lose the cushion. No good. Sure lots of folks may just drive a solid pullied car well enough to avoid the prospective damage - but with 40,000 HCs produced how can you risk it as an OEM?

With a huge budget you can do whatever you want, twins, pro charge, etc and your thousands in to it. For like $700 I put a pulley on mine and make 16-17psi and can run 9s. Obviously I had to do injectors, pcm, and tune, but you'd have the same (or more) with the other setups. Cam? $$$$ in this car and good luck with tuning that nightmare.

Hellcats are already very potent as is and with minimal upgrades become street/strip weapons. There are proven combos. If you want to be a trend setter (read R&D customer) then be ready for what that means. Been there done that and have the check stubs that go with it. On the Hellcat I want KISS.

I do agree that I wouldn't personally spin the blower faster than I am now. If I need "more" at some point porting would be next but after the early failures I'm gonna sit that out and see how these hold up long term. I don't want headaches and the porting is pretty expensive as well. I bet you could almost buy a 3.0L IHI for what the porting service costs and you'd be ahead.

I've already met my goals for the car. Had I not had that engine failure I'd have very little in to it for how it runs. With the upgraded engine I'm better off in the long run but it hit the pocket book more than I really wanted for this car. IF I ever decide I wanna run lower 9s I'll be hunting for a 3.0L IHI blower.

Next up for me will be a dual fuel pump setup. Everyone says you only need that if running E85 on a Hellcat, but the Demon and RE and Trackhawk all have dual pumps. My logs in cold air are showing I'm maxing out the fuel pump DC and fuel pressure is dropping in the upper RPMs from 79psi to 64. Gotta feed the beast. Then I might fiddle with flex fuel a bit just to see how it works.