E85 Tuning Questions

[Phast Hemi]

Agreed. Although you go threw E85 faster than gasoline. I think I've heard the shelf life of E85 in a barrel is around 60-90 days, unsure though. I was told to keep the barrel off the concrete so it doesn't absorb moisture. Although this is why I wouldn't mind a flex tune either, especially if I buy my E85 from this other company that makes it themselves and sells it in pails or barrels.

This is why I prefer to buy it in 5 gallon pails for racing. I won't hesitate to use tested e85 from a pump or barrel for daily driving . Everyone in the continental USA has easy access to e85. It's called UPS freight or some other trucking company. National Biofuels sells and ships e85 anywhere in the USA. Most local fuel vendors will also sell drums of fuel and deliver them for a fee.

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[MaxCarnage]

This is why I prefer to buy it in 5 gallon pails for racing. I won't hesitate to use tested e85 from a pump or barrel for daily driving . Everyone in the continental USA has easy access to e85. It's called UPS freight or some other trucking company. National Biofuels sells and ships e85 anywhere in the USA. Most local fuel vendors will also sell drums of fuel and deliver them for a fee.

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I don't know if I'd say E85 is easy access in my area, but it can be done. It's also not nearly as cheap as E85 in areas where it's extremely popular. So far the best source I have found wants $260 delivered for a 55 gal barrel. At $4.72 a gallon it's a lot more expensive than midwest E85. However, that is still much cheaper than $16 a gallon MS109, and it makes more power too!

I'm just waiting on Curt to locally tune some Redeyes on Flex E85, once he does he said he will start remote tuning them on Flex. From my understanding the flex tune allows you to run pump gas, but I don't know if you can't go WOT on it and if it's just a way to get you where you need to go if you don't want to run E85. Otherwise 2 tunes will be required for me. I don't drive a lot. I have just over 1,000 miles on my Redeye and I've owned it since January. Winter keeps my mileage low, and I pretty much only drive it on the weekends when the weather is nice. I just want to be able to take a road trip with my Redeye if I wanted to, and not worry about no E85 access because we have ZERO pumps in our area (All comes in by the barrel).

I know I've asked you a few questions already so I appreciate the info. I've never tried E85, so it will be all new for me. After seeing your slips though, there is some serious potential in E85!

 

[MaxCarnage]

Also if anyone is curious Curt quoted me (Roughly) $3k for E85 tune on my Redeye which includes:

Unlock PCM $300
MPVI2 credits (6 Engine and Trans) $600
Engine/Trans Tuning $800
Smart Cable $89
FIC1200 Injectors w/PnP harness $1085

He also recommends a 180-T stat (Not sure on price), and the flex fuel tune is an extra $300.

Good bang for your buck imo. I would like to do the work myself, and the only real work is removing/reinstalling pcm, installing injectors and 180-t stat, all of which from my research doesn't seem too difficult to do. I believe this combo makes 100+whp, and is capable of mid 9s in good DA (Phast Hemi has ran a 9.73 at 2000DA). .

 

[Phast Hemi]

I don't know if I'd say E85 is easy access in my area, but it can be done. It's also not nearly as cheap as E85 in areas where it's extremely popular. So far the best source I have found wants $260 delivered for a 55 gal barrel. At $4.72 a gallon it's a lot more expensive than midwest E85. However, that is still much cheaper than $16 a gallon MS109, and it makes more power too!

I'm just waiting on Curt to locally tune some Redeyes on Flex E85, once he does he said he will start remote tuning them on Flex. From my understanding the flex tune allows you to run pump gas, but I don't know if you can't go WOT on it and if it's just a way to get you where you need to go if you don't want to run E85. Otherwise 2 tunes will be required for me. I don't drive a lot. I have just over 1,000 miles on my Redeye and I've owned it since January. Winter keeps my mileage low, and I pretty much only drive it on the weekends when the weather is nice. I just want to be able to take a road trip with my Redeye if I wanted to, and not worry about no E85 access because we have ZERO pumps in our area (All comes in by the barrel).

I know I've asked you a few questions already so I appreciate the info. I've never tried E85, so it will be all new for me. After seeing your slips though, there is some serious potential in E85!

To put things in perspective, folks in Cali are paying $4+ per gallon for 93. Drum e85 is superior to any pump gasoline fuel at any price. I have raced on TESTED drum and pump e85 and it can't be beat for the price.

I daily and race on the same tune. Since I'm always at the track, no need for me to go WOT on the street. If some one wants a piece, they know where they need to go to get it- the track. Since I'm not hot dogging on the street, pump e78- e85 is fine for daily use. Folks in these groups who are fixated on tunes need to shift their focus to the fuel they run.

I run a single tune, but have the ability to rapidly switch between tunes in about 3 minutes. Switching tunes should not be an issue for any customer who is remote tuned as they already have the required tools to quickly datalog and load tunes. Changing tunes is not a big deal.

 

[Phast Hemi]

Also if anyone is curious Curt quoted me (Roughly) $3k for E85 tune on my Redeye which includes:

Unlock PCM $300
MPVI2 credits (6 Engine and Trans) $600
Engine/Trans Tuning $800
Smart Cable $89
FIC1200 Injectors w/PnP harness $1085

He also recommends a 180-T stat (Not sure on price), and the flex fuel tune is an extra $300.

Good bang for your buck imo. I would like to do the work myself, and the only real work is removing/reinstalling pcm, installing injectors and 180-t stat, all of which from my research doesn't seem too difficult to do. I believe this combo makes 100+whp, and is capable of mid 9s in good DA (Phast Hemi has ran a 9.73 at 2000DA). .

This is almost the same setup I run. These parts can be installed in about 2 hours. I don't do dynos, but I can say this setup works well and will allow a stock boost car to compete with pullied counterparts.

As for what it's capable of, well, we are still testing and have not found the limits yet. Our data shows that this setup should be good for 9.6x in warm weather once it's dialed in and we get the short game right.

In good air, this thing will be frightening on stock boost... And quicker than the expectations I've publicly uttered in the past.

 

[moparjim]

I don't know if I'd say E85 is easy access in my area, but it can be done. It's also not nearly as cheap as E85 in areas where it's extremely popular. So far the best source I have found wants $260 delivered for a 55 gal barrel. At $4.72 a gallon it's a lot more expensive than midwest E85. However, that is still much cheaper than $16 a gallon MS109, and it makes more power too!

I'm just waiting on Curt to locally tune some Redeyes on Flex E85, once he does he said he will start remote tuning them on Flex. From my understanding the flex tune allows you to run pump gas, but I don't know if you can't go WOT on it and if it's just a way to get you where you need to go if you don't want to run E85. Otherwise 2 tunes will be required for me. I don't drive a lot. I have just over 1,000 miles on my Redeye and I've owned it since January. Winter keeps my mileage low, and I pretty much only drive it on the weekends when the weather is nice. I just want to be able to take a road trip with my Redeye if I wanted to, and not worry about no E85 access because we have ZERO pumps in our area (All comes in by the barrel).

I know I've asked you a few questions already so I appreciate the info. I've never tried E85, so it will be all new for me. After seeing your slips though, there is some serious potential in E85!

I wish ms109 was $16 a gallon up here.🙁 How would you like almost $40 a gallon. If I head west 3hrs I can save about $60/5gal.

 

[MaxCarnage]

To put things in perspective, folks in Cali are paying $4+ per gallon for 93. Drum e85 is superior to any pump gasoline fuel at any price. I have raced on TESTED drum and pump e85 and it can't be beat for the price.

I daily and race on the same tune. Since I'm always at the track, no need for me to go WOT on the street. If some one wants a piece, they know where they need to go to get it- the track. Since I'm not hot dogging on the street, pump e78- e85 is fine for daily use. Folks in these groups who are fixated on tunes need to shift their focus to the fuel they run.

I run a single tune, but have the ability to rapidly switch between tunes in about 3 minutes. Switching tunes should not be an issue for any customer who is remote tuned as they already have the required tools to quickly datalog and load tunes. Changing tunes is not a big deal.

Agreed fuel is extremely important, especially consistency of that fuel when going WOT. Speaking of Stock vs Stock (Just a fuel change) which fuel makes the most power? I've heard E85 runs cleaner (no carbon buildup), and I believe E85 makes more power than MS109 but I think you gotta go to E98 to be comparable to Q16, but not sure. Speaking of data logging (never done it, cuz I'm stock, lol), what parameters are you looking at? That something you are looking at from time to time to check that everything is good? If so what are you looking at? AFR and more? You're probably right switching tunes likely isn't a big deal, but I figure it doesn't hurt to wait and see if the flex tune is something more desirable for me or if indeed I'd rather just have 2 tunes. I just want to make sure I'm doing what's best for the car (safety wise), especially when going WOT. I don't want to rely on the flex tune if it's not really the best situation for racing and street driving. At that point, I'd rather have 2 tunes that do the job great for what they are meant for (Street driving/Racing).

This is almost the same setup I run. These parts can be installed in about 2 hours. I don't do dynos, but I can say this setup works well and will allow a stock boost car to compete with pullied counterparts.

As for what it's capable of, well, we are still testing and have not found the limits yet. Our data shows that this setup should be good for 9.6x in warm weather once it's dialed in and we get the short game right.

In good air, this thing will be frightening on stock boost... And quicker than the expectations I've publicly uttered in the past.

What do you think about this parts list? Add or delete anything from it? I asked Curt about JBA cat delete mids and he said the gains were very minimal. Dynos are just a tool, gives me an idea of power I've gained for mods, but the track is where it matters most. After all, some things you can't see on a dyno, and only at the track like a TCM tune.

 

[FFBOS]

Curt is legit.....

My fans run on high once my car gets up to temp with my 180 degree thermostat. It has been that way for 15,000 miles lol. No issues.

 

[Blkout]

I have passed the word to Curt about this forum. I hope he makes it over soon.

 

[Phast Hemi]

Agreed fuel is extremely important, especially consistency of that fuel when going WOT. Speaking of Stock vs Stock (Just a fuel change) which fuel makes the most power? I've heard E85 runs cleaner (no carbon buildup), and I believe E85 makes more power than MS109 but I think you gotta go to E98 to be comparable to Q16, but not sure. Speaking of data logging (never done it, cuz I'm stock, lol), what parameters are you looking at? That something you are looking at from time to time to check that everything is good? If so what are you looking at? AFR and more? You're probably right switching tunes likely isn't a big deal, but I figure it doesn't hurt to wait and see if the flex tune is something more desirable for me or if indeed I'd rather just have 2 tunes. I just want to make sure I'm doing what's best for the car (safety wise), especially when going WOT. I don't want to rely on the flex tune if it's not really the best situation for racing and street driving. At that point, I'd rather have 2 tunes that do the job great for what they are meant for (Street driving/Racing).



What do you think about this parts list? Add or delete anything from it? I asked Curt about JBA cat delete mids and he said the gains were very minimal. Dynos are just a tool, gives me an idea of power I've gained for mods, but the track is where it matters most. After all, some things you can't see on a dyno, and only at the track like a TCM tune.

We found e85 to be worth a tenth over Ms 109 running the same timing.

I run the full factory exhaust, including catalytic converters and mid mufflers unaltered on both the the hellcat that went 9.89 and the current red-eye.

 

[fubar569]

I haven't written my full review yet.. but I now have about 1200 Miles in the last 3 weeks on my Dusterhoff Stg 4 package. It was installed by OST Dyno and then remote tuned by Curt with further remote revisions on the street (4 in total).

Stg 4 for a Hellcat (non-redeye) is:

PCM Unlock
180 Stat
2.50 pulley
IE Gasohol kit
FIC 1200's
PCM Tuning

I added the 2.85 pulley and flex tuning, TCM tuning, HPT smart cable (required 18+ cars). Also in addition to this package I had AFe Catless mids installed.

With the flex tune...you need to run a pulley that is safe for both fuels...thus the 2.85 pulley. You can run any blend of ethanol on this pulley on a flex tune. It is able to infer alcohol content based off the factory wideband sensors and adjust timing accordingly. There is no reason you couldn't go WOT on 93 or any E blend...just make sure your alcohol content has leveled out first...i.e. give the car time to adjust to the fuel.

The 2.5 pulley is strictly E85 only with a minimum ethanol Content of E75. If my Alcohol percentage in HPT reads consistently E75 or higher and I can back that up with a fuel sample/test I can install the pulley in maybe 15min and the tune takes 35 seconds to flash. I've spent maybe 800 miles on kill so far and it's literally asinine the power this thing makes on the street. It's hard to capture good data logs on street tires while not ending up on the roof or in jail.

Upon initial delivery the car did have an idle hunt issue as well as intermittent problems stumbling in and out of gear. After a couple logs curt was able to make a revision to the idle which immediately resolved the issue. He made 4 revisions overall and the last 2 were to properly deal with DTC's from the catless mids...which I believe was a miscommunication between myself, curt and OST. He then applied the changes to the 2.5 tune as well for me.

I've collected several logs on both pulleys mostly on E45 and higher (E75+ for the 2.5 pulley) and there is Zero KR of any kind. Anywhere. EQ error is minimal, the STFT/LTFT look good and temperatures are under control. Transmission seems to want to hold every gear longer even in Eco mode which isn't bad...in track mode the shifts are quick & precise and not overly harsh. Curt recommends setting the Trans to track mode if you're gonna be flogging it hard.

113% would use curt again. Service is awesome the the car is a whole new animal now.

 

[MaxCarnage]

I haven't written my full review yet.. but I now have about 1200 Miles in the last 3 weeks on my Dusterhoff Stg 4 package. It was installed by OST Dyno and then remote tuned by Curt with further remote revisions on the street (4 in total).

Stg 4 for a Hellcat (non-redeye) is:

PCM Unlock
180 Stat
2.50 pulley
IE Gasohol kit
FIC 1200's
PCM Tuning

I added the 2.85 pulley and flex tuning, TCM tuning, HPT smart cable (required 18+ cars). Also in addition to this package I had AFe Catless mids installed.

With the flex tune...you need to run a pulley that is safe for both fuels...thus the 2.85 pulley. You can run any blend of ethanol on this pulley on a flex tune. It is able to infer alcohol content based off the factory wideband sensors and adjust timing accordingly. There is no reason you couldn't go WOT on 93 or any E blend...just make sure your alcohol content has leveled out first...i.e. give the car time to adjust to the fuel.

The 2.5 pulley is strictly E85 only with a minimum ethanol Content of E75. If my Alcohol percentage in HPT reads consistently E75 or higher and I can back that up with a fuel sample/test I can install the pulley in maybe 15min and the tune takes 35 seconds to flash. I've spent maybe 800 miles on kill so far and it's literally asinine the power this thing makes on the street. It's hard to capture good data logs on street tires while not ending up on the roof or in jail.

Upon initial delivery the car did have an idle hunt issue as well as intermittent problems stumbling in and out of gear. After a couple logs curt was able to make a revision to the idle which immediately resolved the issue. He made 4 revisions overall and the last 2 were to properly deal with DTC's from the catless mids...which I believe was a miscommunication between myself, curt and OST. He then applied the changes to the 2.5 tune as well for me.

I've collected several logs on both pulleys mostly on E45 and higher (E75+ for the 2.5 pulley) and there is Zero KR of any kind. Anywhere. EQ error is minimal, the STFT/LTFT look good and temperatures are under control. Transmission seems to want to hold every gear longer even in Eco mode which isn't bad...in track mode the shifts are quick & precise and not overly harsh. Curt recommends setting the Trans to track mode if you're gonna be flogging it hard.

113% would use curt again. Service is awesome the the car is a whole new animal now.

Thanks for the feedback I appreciate it. My goals for my Redeye are simple (for now). The flex-tune would work fine, considering I would stay stock pulley. Running 9s in good weather on E85 is plenty for me. Once I want to start making more boost (If I do), I'd likely have to run E85 all the time, and upgrade the fuel system even further. FIC 1200s are enough Injector for a 2.5 pulley on your cat?

I've never logged any logs because my Redeye is stock, but it doesn't sound difficult. I appreciate you telling me what to look out for. I know KR (knock retarding, engine pulling timing due to knock), but what is EQ, STFT/LTFT? When you say give your car time to adjust for fuel, how many miles/time you suggest? I'm hoping I can smell it, when the E85 is burning vs the pump, lol. Since the E85 I'm looking at is made from sugar (fruit byproduct) and not starch (corn, like most get), I heard it smells sweet and sometimes like berries, lol.

 

[fubar569]

Thanks for the feedback I appreciate it. My goals for my Redeye are simple (for now). The flex-tune would work fine, considering I would stay stock pulley. Running 9s in good weather on E85 is plenty for me. Once I want to start making more boost (If I do), I'd likely have to run E85 all the time, and upgrade the fuel system even further. FIC 1200s are enough Injector for a 2.5 pulley on your cat?

I've never logged any logs because my Redeye is stock, but it doesn't sound difficult. I appreciate you telling me what to look out for. I know KR (knock retarding, engine pulling timing due to knock), but what is EQ, STFT/LTFT? When you say give your car time to adjust for fuel, how many miles/time you suggest? I'm hoping I can smell it, when the E85 is burning vs the pump, lol. Since the E85 I'm looking at is made from sugar (fruit byproduct) and not starch (corn, like most get), I heard it smells sweet and sometimes like berries, lol.

Most will say give or take 16psi on 93 octane is a decently safe limit. Some get away with more and some less. I believe that is about a 3.1 pulley on the redeye/demon because of the 2.7L blower vs the hellcat 2.4L.

The Gasohol kit and FIC1200's are enough for my car on a 2.5 in this application. It will hold 80+psi fuel pressure on E90 thru 6500rpm with a Maximum injector duty cycle so far in the 60's. I have seen 19.5psi on the 2.5 pulley...so that's definitely E85 or race gas only territory.

STFT and LTFT are your short term and long term fuel trims...read on a per-bank basis. EQ is equivalence ratio...or lambda. Lambda doesn't care what fuel you use. Lambda 1 is always stoich regardless of fuel. EQ/lambda error is how far off the measured EQ/lambda is from the Commanded EQ/lambda in the tune.

The Alcohol percentage usually settles out pretty good after about 10-15 miles or a couple gentle NON-WOT passes. You've just gotta burn enough fuel to get the good stuff into the line.

At an idle you'll definitely be able to smell tell difference. Especially without cats. Most can't stand the smell of gas but honestly I get a little chub. The E85 just makes me hungry for popcorn.

 

[MaxCarnage]

Most will say give or take 16psi on 93 octane is a decently safe limit. Some get away with more and some less. I believe that is about a 3.1 pulley on the redeye/demon because of the 2.7L blower vs the hellcat 2.4L.

The Gasohol kit and FIC1200's are enough for my car on a 2.5 in this application. It will hold 80+psi fuel pressure on E90 thru 6500rpm with a Maximum injector duty cycle so far in the 60's. I have seen 19.5psi on the 2.5 pulley...so that's definitely E85 or race gas only territory.

STFT and LTFT are your short term and long term fuel trims...read on a per-bank basis. EQ is equivalence ratio...or lambda. Lambda doesn't care what fuel you use. Lambda 1 is always stoich regardless of fuel. EQ/lambda error is how far off the measured EQ/lambda is from the Commanded EQ/lambda in the tune.

The Alcohol percentage usually settles out pretty good after about 10-15 miles or a couple gentle NON-WOT passes. You've just gotta burn enough fuel to get the good stuff into the line.

At an idle you'll definitely be able to smell tell difference. Especially without cats. Most can't stand the smell of gas but honestly I get a little chub. The E85 just makes me hungry for popcorn.

I only have access to 92 pump gas, so I don't think I'll be pushing the limits of pump gas beyond the stock pulley on my Redeye. There is a local guy who owns a charger hellcat (15' I think), he's done a 2.85 pulley with a pump gas and MS109 tune. He should be making about the same boost as I am (his s/c spacers might make more, too not sure). Anyway, I'll be curious how his 2.85 pulley cat on MS109 stacks up against me doing an E85 tune stock pulley. If I end up running much faster I might end up converting him to E85, lol!

Curt told me deleted cats make minimal gains, so I''ll likely just keep the cats. I've deleted cats before, pump gas smells awful, you are crazy! lol.

 

[RGPIII]

So this is a topic i've been putting thought into as I have found probably 5 stations relatively close to me that carry E85. (within 15-20 miles is the closest) I already know I'm going stage 2 with upper and lower, catless mids, dual fuel pump. I think the only thing I would need to adjust is going with the 1300's instead of the 1050's right? Then its just a matter of tuning? I have local stations that have race fuel as well. I would like the ability to run 93 as well.

 

[fubar569]

If you're swapping to the gasohol pump kit all you will need is the 1200/1300 injectors to run E85.

If you want to run flex fuel...your base pulley combination will need to be safe for both fuel types...i.e. pump 93 and pump E85. It only adjusts timing...not boost levels.

If you don't mind swapping upper pulley and tune...you can have a base combo good for use on 93 pump only or with flex fuel...and then swap to a smaller pulley with an E85 only race tune. That's how Curt's Stg 4 with flex option works except he doesn't use a lower in any of his packages. With a 10% lower you'd just want to upsize the upper to compensate and keep the blower speed & boost in the same ballpark.

 

[MaxCarnage]

So this is a topic i've been putting thought into as I have found probably 5 stations relatively close to me that carry E85. (within 15-20 miles is the closest) I already know I'm going stage 2 with upper and lower, catless mids, dual fuel pump. I think the only thing I would need to adjust is going with the 1300's instead of the 1050's right? Then its just a matter of tuning? I have local stations that have race fuel as well. I would like the ability to run 93 as well.

Curt is here now so he can answer your questions @curt_dusterhofftuning .

That said Curt told me he likes the FIC 1200 injectors for E85. He has been using them in place of the more expensive ID1300s. So you would need swap out the 1050cc injectors with 1200cc+ injectors. If you want to run 93 pump gas you either need to have 2 tunes. 1 for E85 and 1 for pump gas and swap between them as you swap fuel OR you can get Curts flex fuel tune and run a single tune that will do both. I'd suggest contacting Curt with more questions, as an E85 tuner he can help answer them.

 

[RGPIII]

Curt is here now so he can answer your questions @curt_dusterhofftuning .

That said Curt told me he likes the FIC 1200 injectors for E85. He has been using them in place of the more expensive ID1300s. So you would need swap out the 1050cc injectors with 1200cc+ injectors. If you want to run 93 pump gas you either need to have 2 tunes. 1 for E85 and 1 for pump gas and swap between them as you swap fuel OR you can get Curts flex fuel tune and run a single tune that will do both. I'd suggest contacting Curt with more questions, as an E85 tuner he can help answer them.

Thanks for the reply. I will be speaking with my Tuner this weekend about it all. Right now its all just hypothetical as my car is still mostly stock other than all the supporting modifications for when we start adding power. Just doing as much research on all the different routes we can go with it..

 

[MaxCarnage]

@curt_dusterhofftuning

Curt,

HHP is now selling a 3.17 Litens pulley (No tune required).

https://www.highhorseperformance.co...zRvtDMcleMkXp7XinbD3V01fpeyK7wV6RZ8KQ522wjyu8

I know that the fuel system (pumps) you can't do much in the way of smaller pulleys on E85 for a Redeye. Assuming you have the FIC1200 injectors do you know if this pulley would work with just an injector upgrade on the Redeye using E85? I'd guess it gives you 1-1.5psi.

 

[Speedy!]

Did someone say HPT can log alcohol content of the fuel?

By the way, a lot can be gleaned logging your stock car.