Decided on a replacement for Go Man Go

[fubar569]

At this point I'd almost be willing to contribute to a bounty pool. I'm going to take a stab and say that those pins are physically present and connected to the board on all 18 and newer cars. It would be a matter of the operating system on the PCM itself interpreting the input, giving the sensor power and ground and feeding a wire to the appropriate pin almost like the flex conversion for most GM vehicles.

 

[Jroc]

At this point I'd almost be willing to contribute to a bounty pool. I'm going to take a stab and say that those pins are physically present and connected to the board on all 18 and newer cars. It would be a matter of the operating system on the PCM itself interpreting the input, giving the sensor power and ground and feeding a wire to the appropriate pin almost like the flex conversion for most GM vehicles.

Thats the working assumption that a few of us have been working with. Some people/companies have been talking about developing a kit but I haven’t seen anything yet.

 

[Unholy707]

Only way to do it would be to patch the calibration with wahetevee tables the 170 uses. Would like to see a stock read, need to know if it’s different

 

[Unholy707]

I’m thinking it’s like automatic high octane mode, only it switches to the tables automatically instead of having to hit a button, going based off it running really rich on 93 - maybe it doesn’t really adjust like we think. @Speedy! is holding out with that calibration 😉

 

[fubar569]

Only way to do it would be to patch the calibration with wahetevee tables the 170 uses. Would like to see a stock read, need to know if it’s different

You can try to insert those tables & data if you want but if the OS doesn't know what (or where) it's referencing it won't mean a damn thing.

I’m thinking it’s like automatic high octane mode, only it switches to the tables automatically instead of having to hit a button, going based off it running really rich on 93 - maybe it doesn’t really adjust like we think. @Speedy! is holding out with that calibration 😉

Running Pig rich on 93 is probably part of the function of keeping it alive at 22 lb of boost since apparently one of the things they could not make work is Boost bleed via the bypass.

There are Separate Tables for regular, ho mode, alcohol, and ho alcohol and it is capable of blending between these tables for any given content. We now know the sensor comes in directly on a pin right to the PCM. So how do we turn it on is the question...

The interesting part of this is that it could be used in conjunction with high octane mode for a second dedicated set of ethanol Maps. So you could have a pump E85 map and hit high octane mode for more aggressive timing on something like ignite red or e98

 

[Unholy707]

Right, that’s why I said patch the os - like they do for flex fuel. HP tuners would have to put in some work

You can try to insert those tables & data if you want but if the OS doesn't know what (or where) it's referencing it won't mean a damn thing.



Running Pig rich on 93 is probably part of the function of keeping it alive at 22 lb of boost since apparently one of the things they could not make work is Boost bleed via the bypass.

There are Separate Tables for regular, ho mode, alcohol, and ho alcohol and it is capable of blending between these tables for any given content. We now know the sensor comes in directly on a pin right to the PCM. So how do we turn it on is the question...

The interesting part of this is that it could be used in conjunction with high octane mode for a second dedicated set of ethanol Maps. So you could have a pump E85 map and hit high octane mode for more aggressive timing on something like ignite red or e98

 

[fubar569]

I'll help put some cash up to make it happen.

 

[Jroc]

Only way to do it would be to patch the calibration with wahetevee tables the 170 uses. Would like to see a stock read, need to know if it’s different

We sent a stock calibration to HPT almost a year ago. Last I heard, they were still trying to figure out how it worked, but that was quite awhile ago so I'm not sure where everyone that was involved in trying to make a kit is currently at.

EDIT: Edited to add that sorry I won't share the stock read with anyone, as I said I had it about a year ago and the tune obviously shows the VIN when you open it up in HPTuners so I'm sure everyone can do the math and understand why I can't share that calibration.

 

[Unholy707]

We sent a stock calibration to HPT almost a year ago. Last I heard, they were still trying to figure out how it worked, but that was quite awhile ago so I'm not sure where everyone that was involved in trying to make a kit is currently at.

EDIT: Edited to add that sorry I won't share the stock read with anyone, as I said I had it about a year ago and the tune obviously shows the VIN when you open it up in HPTuners so I'm sure everyone can do the math and understand why I can't share that calibration.

I’ll settle for pictures with vin redacted at this point lol. Just need to do a compare with hp tuners to see the differences and take a screen shot

 

[fubar569]

We sent a stock calibration to HPT almost a year ago. Last I heard, they were still trying to figure out how it worked, but that was quite awhile ago so I'm not sure where everyone that was involved in trying to make a kit is currently at.

EDIT: Edited to add that sorry I won't share the stock read with anyone, as I said I had it about a year ago and the tune obviously shows the VIN when you open it up in HPTuners so I'm sure everyone can do the math and understand why I can't share that calibration.

A year heads up for a stock cal & OS on a PCM that had already been "unlocked" and used in the platform for 5 years?

Must've been some real magic sauce coming out of the engineering team at fiatsler on that one if they scratched their heads this long and coming up with question marks.

I'm gonna guess pre-production engineering sample but damn close to release software and that would get multiple people shitcanned if it "leaked" - I don't blame you for not sharing...

...but viewing in person with no cameras or screenshots...lol

 

[Speedy!]

It's not an automatic HO "switch" for flex. There are gasoline and ethanol timing tables. Between 0 and 65% ethanol there's an algorithm that blends them together. This was also the case on my inferred flex fuel tune. Then the fueling comes in with some multipliers and other variables that change the stoich ratio as E content rises.

 

[Unholy707]

I’m just going to keep making baseless assumptions until I see it lol 😂

 

[Unholy707]

I’m hoping they come out with a c170 crate harness and pcm that does it, so we can look there. They’re supposed to be coming out with an 8hp90 controller as well, still haven’t seen it

 

[fubar569]

Essentially the groundwork has always been buried there with all of the tables. Multiple platforms that are flex capable run this PCM. That's how the inferred logic is able to function. The factory just decided to finally directly measure the content. Except we dont seem to know how the PCM is able to interpret that new input and whether or not it references any existing "inferred" tables.

They’re supposed to be coming out with an 8hp90 controller as well, still haven’t seen it

the TCM is inside the transmission itself. So much data is fed back & forth over CAN that I'd assume it's hard to duplicate that in a stand alone.

 

[Jroc]

It's not an automatic HO "switch" for flex. There are gasoline and ethanol timing tables. Between 0 and 65% ethanol there's an algorithm that blends them together. This was also the case on my inferred flex fuel tune. Then the fueling comes in with some multipliers and other variables that change the stoich ratio as E content rises.

Almost makes you wonder if the sensor was put in just to show the ethanol level on the cluster and the tune itself still runs off inferred.

I can't imagine they would do that BUT you never know.

What I can say from what we have figured out is that the sensor is a 0-5v sensor, much the same way that a GM flex sensor works. If this ever gets figured out we don't even necessarily have to use the D170 sensor and could use a generic 0-5v sensor and pin it to the PCM.

BUT thats enough of me taking @Speedy! thread off track to celebrate his beautiful Demon 170. We can all talk this flex business out in another thread if warranted.

 

[fubar569]

Almost makes you wonder if the sensor was put in just to show the ethanol level on the cluster and the tune itself still runs off inferred.

I can't imagine they would do that BUT you never know.

This is exactly...EXACTLY the kind of dumb s$&t I'd expect out of Dodge at this point.

 

[Jroc]

This is exactly...EXACTLY the kind of dumb s$&t I'd expect out of Dodge at this point.

I hate to say it but I'm with you.

 

[fubar569]

I hate to say it but I'm with you.

Although. Would there have been a need to plug the sensor directly to the PCM first and not another unit if all they were concerned with was a cluster/PP reading? It could be pulled from the CAN feed elsewhere for "datalogging"...but as far as relying on something for fuel/timing/torque/etc calculations you'd want that hardwired straight in before going elsewhere.

But again. Dodge will always do Dodge things in the most Dodge way possible.

 

[Jroc]

It definitely goes into the PCM for a reason, I do think it supplies data I just don't think we have figured out quite how the tune works yet.

Warranty wise I can't see them running it inferred. I know a lot of tuners will do inferred flex tunes but that never sat right with me, and when my tuner said yeah I can give you a flex tune but don't race the car on it, that just confirmed my uneasyness about racing on a flex tune.

 

[Unholy707]

I know all about this. I know a lot about the electronics in these cars, I won’t go into detail in this post because it’s somewhat known. All you need is an esm and a canbus module to receive what the engine says and send what the sifter says, and vise versa with the tcm . Look at sound German.

Essentially the groundwork has always been buried there with all of the tables. Multiple platforms that are flex capable run this PCM. That's how the inferred logic is able to function. The factory just decided to finally directly measure the content. Except we dont seem to know how the PCM is able to interpret that new input and whether or not it references any existing "inferred" tables.



the TCM is inside the transmission itself. So much data is fed back & forth over CAN that I'd assume it's hard to duplicate that in a stand alone.